How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 268 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
I offer to you the following article, which gives the latest information on the well-known longitudinal "Nun Study".
Please note particularly the phrase "[people] with positive attitudes ... tend to live longer than their glass-half-empty peers ..."
This research has been going on since 1986, and is providing extremely valuable information regarding not only long-life, but prevention of dementia.
I am NOT advocating "head in the sand". I am advocating thinking and acting creatively in the face of reality. Knowledge, then preparation, then action -- versus "the sky is falling - and there is nothing to be done!" (Also known as a symptom of Chronic Eeyore Syndrome in my practice of psychiatry.)
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
the view from Hubbert's Peak - a devastated, collapsing panorama - has freed me from some internalized, culturally based error - and yes I'm a doomer and I'm much happier!! Go figure!
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 268 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
satjeet wrote:
the view from Hubbert's Peak - a devastated, collapsing panorama - has freed me from some internalized, culturally based error - and yes I'm a doomer and I'm much happier!! Go figure!
Perhaps we are using the word "Doomer" with different connotations -- because, frankly, I am in agreement with your statement regarding the freeing nature of "seeing the light", so to speak. After all, someone far wiser than either of us said "The truth will set you free."
I would go even further to say that I believe that the relocalization of commerce and community that will be mandated by the reality of the post-peak oil world will, in fact, be the means to the saving grace of human kind.
Yes, I believe lots of people are going to suffer and lots of people are going to die. But those who remain will by and large re-embrace (by necessity -- it will just be 'the way things are') a better way of living in community, and within themselves. And therefore the world will be a better place to be than it has been in the recent past and the present.
So even though I believe that things are going to change drastically, I don't see this as doom -- I see this as good and hopeful.
To me, being a doomer means thinking along these lines: "It's all coming crashing down, and there is nothing I can do on a personal level to change my life in order to make my future and the future of my loved ones and my community better after the crash."
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Quote:
I would go even further to say that I believe that the relocalization of commerce and community that will be mandated by the reality of the post-peak oil world will, in fact, be the means to the saving grace of human kind.
I agree with the above.
I totally don't agree with this so called study, I think its propaganda as my personal experience doesn't jive with the idea that people with more optomistic attitudes live longer. Most of the population is rather pessimistic (as evidenced by the Jerry Springer wanna-bes who get attention by having chaotic lives) This is excepting of course the medicated population who are happier than before, but not by choice.
Also of the 6 people I know who have died; 5 of them were from cancer. Frankly I am tired of seeing nice people die of cancer. Why can't it take more of the assholes?
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6018 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
"Living longer"---what does that mean?
All the ailments, aches, and pains of old age. Slowly watching yourself lose all the functioning and abilities you hold dear.
Old age isn't something to aim for. Because by the time you get there, you'll find it isn't very worthwhile being there.
Take a walk down the hallway of a nursing home and you'll see what I mean. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 268 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
uNkNowN ElEmEnt wrote:
I totally don't agree with this so called study, I think its propaganda as my personal experience doesn't jive with the idea that people with more optomistic attitudes live longer.
Also of the 6 people I know who have died; 5 of them were from cancer. Frankly I am tired of seeing nice people die of cancer. Why can't it take more of the assholes?
Your second paragraph (above) gives me a clue as to why you would call this a "so called study".
The Nun Study is extremely well-known and has been well-documented from its beginnings in 1986. As the article (the link to which I provided you) indicates, it actually was aimed at studying the effects of keeping one's mind active on the later development or non-development of Alzheimer's Disease, or other dementias.
However, if you have only lived long enough to know 6 people who have died, I am not surprised that you are not familiar with this study. I am guessing you might have been very young or perhaps not yet born when it was initiated.
As to cancer not taking any jerks off this planet ... well, of course, that is simply not true. Probably the 5 people you know who died of cancer were people you cared about -- good people in your life. So it might SEEM to you that only the good die of cancer. But please believe me, after years in the field of medicine (and several decades of life), I have seen cancer kill a multitude of people -- and it is no respecter of whether folks are nice or assholes.
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 268 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Heineken wrote:
"Living longer"---what does that mean?
All the ailments, aches, and pains of old age. Slowly watching yourself lose all the functioning and abilities you hold dear.
Old age isn't something to aim for. Because by the time you get there, you'll find it isn't very worthwhile being there.
Take a walk down the hallway of a nursing home and you'll see what I mean.
You know, there are also a lot of young people with ailments, aches and pains -- losing their functions and abilities that they hold dear. Like our 10 year old nephew who has muscular dystrophy and is going downhill rapidly.
And there are a lot of old people who are full of life -- like my adoptive Mom and my Mother-in-Law, who are both 86 and both enjoying life and continuing to contribute to joy in the other peoples' lives. My grandfather lived to 103, and remarried for the 3rd time (outlived the first 2) at 101.
So I couldn't disagree more with your categorical statement that "Old age isn't something to aim for. Because by the time you get there, you'll find it isn't very worthwhile being there." I have known and do know a lot of old people having a great time being alive.
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Lumpy wrote:
Your second paragraph (above) gives me a clue as to why you would call this a "so called study".
However, if you have only lived long enough to know 6 people who have died, I am not surprised that you are not familiar with this study. I am guessing you might have been very young or perhaps not yet born when it was initiated.
NOpe. not even close. YOu are obviously one of those people who assumes that becasue they have several decades to their lives (as do I) and the appropriate and equivalent suffering, that you are superiour enough to be able to make assumptions about people you don't know.
Some of us are just healthier and more long lived than you and your crowd, it would seem. I think working in a health care field is going to colour your reality because of the overwhelming number of deaths you've seen.
When I made the above comment I was talking about the older family members I have that could have had dimensia or alzheimers. There fore I discounted all the people I've deen hang themselves, or slit their wrists, or the guy who had his neck sliced to ribbons being punched through a plate glass window, and the guy who intestines were spread all over a highway... and the like.
Quote:
As to cancer not taking any jerks off this planet ... well, of course, that is simply not true. Probably the 5 people you know who died of cancer were people you cared about -- good people in your life.
Again no. I might have cared about two, lets say three of them. But they are the only family members I've had die. I don't need to parade the vast numbers of younger people I've seen kick the bucket.
Quote:
So it might SEEM to you that only the good die of cancer. But please believe me, after years in the field of medicine (and several decades of life), I have seen cancer kill a multitude of people -- and it is no respecter of whether folks are nice or assholes.
Please, save yourself and get out of the medical field. Its killing you.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11854 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
I'm a doomer, but many here on the boards have said I'm an optimist, even that I live in a happy fluffy fantasy world. So, I'm not sure where I fit in.
I don't expect to live to an advanced age, especially if somebody cuts my rope.
_________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6018 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Lumpy wrote:
Heineken wrote:
"Living longer"---what does that mean?
All the ailments, aches, and pains of old age. Slowly watching yourself lose all the functioning and abilities you hold dear.
Old age isn't something to aim for. Because by the time you get there, you'll find it isn't very worthwhile being there.
Take a walk down the hallway of a nursing home and you'll see what I mean.
You know, there are also a lot of young people with ailments, aches and pains -- losing their functions and abilities that they hold dear. Like our 10 year old nephew who has muscular dystrophy and is going downhill rapidly.
And there are a lot of old people who are full of life -- like my adoptive Mom and my Mother-in-Law, who are both 86 and both enjoying life and continuing to contribute to joy in the other peoples' lives. My grandfather lived to 103, and remarried for the 3rd time (outlived the first 2) at 101.
So I couldn't disagree more with your categorical statement that "Old age isn't something to aim for. Because by the time you get there, you'll find it isn't very worthwhile being there." I have known and do know a lot of old people having a great time being alive.
I don't dispute that my statement was a generalization. However, that fact doesn't preclude its validity for most of us. For example, at 52, I've noticed plenty of age-related decline, and I can see the handwriting on the wall. Doomers have the advantage of not feeling compelled to fool themselves with romantic notions.
I sincerely doubt that those octogenarians and centenarians in your life are living fully independently (if they are, they're outliers). I have two octogenarians who are completely dependent on me, so I know what's involved. I know about the dementia, the hemorrhoids, the arthritis, the constipation, the cancers, the broken hips . . .
I for one could never tolerate a life of dependence on others, or the humiliations often attendant on that.
In any case, in the future it will become difficult or impossible to survive to old age as living standards plummet due to PO, GW, and economic collapse. So your point here is moot.
Finally, there are so many potential confounding factors in the sort of research you quote that the outcomes are heavily freighted with doubt. I just don't buy it. Three of my grandparents were incredibly gloomy people and they all hobbled into their 90s. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Nov 16, 2007 Posts: 268 Location: Rural Western Idaho
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Two people writing responses to my posts (and the article) apparently did not read the article or my posts carefully.
I could line by line go through and point out to you why I say this - but that seems like a waste of time.
I was trying to share some solid research with you, to provide some hope in the face of the losses that are coming.
Being new to posting here, I could not believe it when I got on my computer this morning and found not one positive response from someone who had read the article. (The research is solid. Anyone who knows about research would recognize that one could hardly find a more homogenous group than the nuns of the Nun Study. And it is well known, well documented and well respected.)
Anyway, while my husband sat at his computer, reading the responses, I was vocalizing my amazement that NO ONE HERE 'GOT IT' -- that is to say the essence of the research and the hope that its results brings.
Then he (having been much longer on these boards than I) pointed out the obvious: "You can't bring doomers hope, because they don't want it. Being doomers is their identity. They like it like that. Take your message elsewhere, to someone who wants hope, and will take what you have offered and put it to good use in their lives."
This was coming from a man who is far more pessimistic than I. So this is not advice from a fluff-head, pie-in-the-sky guy.
And you know, I think he's right. Some of the people on PO boards remind me of the EMO/Goth teenagers who wallow in their angst -- don't just get through it the best they can and get on with living.
You doomers are as head-in-the-sand as people who ignore peak oil. You, too, are just as locked into your way of thinking, and find comfort in your caves of doom, it would seem. You don't seem to want to open your eyes to the possibility of hope. How sad.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6018 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
You haven't responded to any of the specific points I raised, Florence Nightingale. Instead, you used our disagreement with you as an opportunity to preach to us.
I did read the article. It only very briefly mentions the "optimism" variable.
The fact that the study was done in nuns does not exclude potential confounders and bias.
All those nuns were at the same institution---Notre Dame. The results have zero geographic generalizability.
Just because my long-range beliefs are those of a doomer doesn't mean I don't have plenty of positive attitudes in my daily life.
Similarly, there are people with cornucopian beliefs who lead gloomy personal lives.
It just doesn't wash, Lumpy. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Non-doomers live longer - Research-based evidence
Ludi wrote:
I don't expect to live to an advanced age, especially if somebody cuts my rope.
Some peoples children eh? just cause they have a knife they think they should use it on everything.
Lumpy, I think you are as guilty of not listening to us as we might be of you. The one kind of person you will find most often on this board are those who think using discernment is a gift and a priority. (Hey, I am trying to be nice cause you are new and take things personally... I am trying)
Just becuase someone says "this" is the best research out there doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other papers taht don't say the exact opposite. We aren't attacking you or your goal of bringing light to our dismal lives, we just don't agree with it... or parts of it.
Regardless, if you want to discuss it, then do so, but don't expect us to take it as gospel just becuase it was done by nuns (who wouldn't have any other agenda right?)
If we are such a waste of time to converse with then you are likely in the wrong place. Either way, welcome, good luck and I appoligize beforehand, but this isn't a play pen... it can get tough in here. But it is worth it, imo.
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