How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Oct 12, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Davis, California
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:22 am Post subject:
Because I don't see the US in rose colored glasses.
She would rather throw a nuclear temper-tantrum than accept that her place as emperor of the world is over.
When your country starts curbing your rights and invading other countries on false pretenses, she deserves everything that happens to her. _________________ Joseph Stalin "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject:
Same here.
And why is it, as someone pointed out on the first page of this topic, that the world, which purports to resent us, calls upon us rather than e.g. China, to save Sudan?
There's the double-standard again.
Now this item about the US buying the world's products is interesting. Basically the inference is that we're a monopsony (single-buyer market), and that contravenes the market principle. So here's another good reason for some rational competition from Europe, including with regard to currency.
Joined: May 09, 2004 Posts: 65 Location: Bavaria, Germany - for the Americans here: this is in Europa ;o)
Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:34 am Post subject:
trespam wrote:
I can't prove it, but I think "collapse of the united states" is a bit far fetched. Let's take a medium term view. 19th century. OK, so the US has been a pain in the ass at times. And we've always had our own interests in mind (who doesn't?). Europe was doing what? Oh yeah, killing millions of Jews, I think there was a Armenian slaughter over on that side, there were millions of Russians who died.
Hmm, all that happened in the 19th century? Jews were mostly killed in 1940 to 1945 in Europe, Armenians in the 1910ies. Please correct me, but IMHO this was the 20th century.
But million of Indians were killed in the 19th Century by the US.
Plus millions of Blacks were enslaved by US citizens in the 19th.
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So let's see, after WWII the US did get involved with some warfare around the world, but also helped lead the world in the direction of democracy.
So if the world really WANTS to the US to collapse, I think they are stupid, short-sighted, and ungrateful.
No, if you look to more than "The West" and the G7. the USA has extended it's economical wellbeing via IMF, WTO and NATO at the expense of most people
Only the plunder of the Third World allowed the US (and as a side-effect the G7-nations) such a beautiful,easy life for the last 100 years.
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The US is living beyond its means.
FULL ACK ,but at whose expense is it living beyond its means?
Someone has to pay for this state and how long will this "someone" still be comfortable to pay for it? Please read my link above and you will understand.
The word DEMOCRACY comes from the GREEK word DIMO-KTRATIA.DIMOS-DIMOTIS,meaning people.KRATIA-KRATOS,meaning country.In other words,COUNTRY OF THE PEOPLE.Guess who gave the planet democracy over 5000 years ago. _________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
Joined: Aug 14, 2004 Posts: 2063 Location: San Diego, Ca.
Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject:
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ = Come and take it !! I have seen it many times on the pro-gun boards. _________________ "Peak oil isn't more than an interesting industry factoid and doesn't have anything to do with the hysterics speculated on ad nauseum around here!" ReserveGrowthRulz
Bravo jato. In 500bc Leonidas and 500 Spartan soldiers stood in front of the Persian army of 10,000 ready to march on Athens at the battle of Thermopylae,that was their battle cry. _________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ-ΛΑΒΕ
The collapse of the US would be the first step towards a sustainable society.
Other countries SHOULD find out that if they make worthless techno-babble, only the US will eat it up. If that is gone, so be it. The rest of the world can do science and mathematics and crap without the US. An economy based on needs and information (true information) could prosper just fine without the US.
The world thinks that the US is necessary for economy, she is the crutch that the world thinks it needs to suceed, but if they learn to walk again, I think the US will be in a lot of trouble.
The world is beginning to wise up and realise that America is not a god. They are beginning to ignore the utterances of Washington and Wall Street. They are learning to walk again.
If you peruse the US economic media, they seem to glow when they report the US has this "robust" economy, in which they have these fantastic growth figures, low inflation and low unemployment. It just makes you want to run out and buy US assets.
But, nobody is anymore. They now read through the lines. High growth in a country that has exported its manufacturing base just means more deficit spending, and thus a lesser chance of being paid back.
Low inflation comes from having the Chinese currency tied to the US dollar, to prevent price fluctuations on Chinese goods. Most people realise that won't last. It is just a matter of time before China releases its peg. That peg costs China higher profits, but a price China is willing to pay for the moment to modernise for free.
Low unemployment means working at jobs that don't pay enough to maintain the American standard of living, meaning more unsustainable credit and deficits.
The Americans just haven't woken up yet to the fact that their propaganda that worked so well through the years is now falling on deaf ears.
I can't prove it, but I think "collapse of the united states" is a bit far fetched. Let's take a medium term view.
Medium term view don't make it. History is happneing faster, much faster in the information age - which started with the radio.
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So let's see, after WWII the US did get involved with some warfare around the world, but also helped lead the world in the direction of democracy.
I'd say the balance re democracy is more on the negative than positive, as US definition of democracy has allways been plutocracy and oligarchy. In my country, Finland, which in 1905 granted full (representative) democratic rights to all citizens as the first country in the world, democracy is creation of socialists and anti-imperialists (including Russian imperialism). US had close to zero role in defining Finnish democracy.
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So if the world really WANTS to the US to collapse, I think they are stupid, short-sighted, and ungrateful.
Those market forces that don't want to see US to collapse (which form the very slim but economically powerfull slim minority) are the ones that are stupid ans short-sighed. World is gratefull to the visionary US socialist leaders and his successors leaders who established UN, saw the wisdom of Marshal aid etc. Today's US has got nothing to do with that society.
Simply said, US consumerism and capitalism and imperialist anti-democracy is causing immense suffering and killing the planet, and it is the best interest of every human being with children to see US collapse ASAP. Rest of the world is certainly not perfect and free from the same sickness that makes US go, but in enviromental, global co-operations it really is US contra mundo, and US is too powerfull. So Fark US, all the best to her citizens, may they learn to behave like decent human beings some day and return to world community.
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But we still lead the world in many of these same issues, and if the world is so short-sighted and short-term in their thinking, well, to hell with them.
You see, I wish hell with US, not with Americans. You wish hell to world, if we wish to stop being your slaves. Grow up.
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Once the imbalances are worked out, the US will still have the largest economy, the largest manufacturing base, the best educated work force, etc.
EU is the largest economy, in manufactoring base I'd guess US comes already behing EU, China and Japan, US has the worst educated work force of OECD because only rich people can educate their children in US. Importing brains educated by others, mostly free socialist education systems, worked well for US for a long time, but now with the emerging fascism the brains don't enjoy living in US so much, brain leakege from US has already started. US has not had those thing you say for many many years and never will. Get real.
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The biggest fear the world has right now is that we're not going to buy their stuff.
Bullshit. Biggest fear the world has is that when US gets the off the wagon treatment, in her madness she will blow us all away. The majority has no illutions about the state of insanity in US, of which you give further proof by your denial.
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