How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
This company makes a 750GB Hard drive with a ton of information and an interface like google. Its expensive but you can update on reconnection to the net.
If you want to mirror the entire Wikipedia on your local Hard drive, there are options as well:
But as far as teaching and retaining knowledge goes, the extensive data storage solutions you've mentioned are much better then paper and the kind of thing that could keep us from falling into a dark age if fast dye off scenarios come into play.
i have a few archives of PeakOil.com. in case the
internet pipes get clogged and i want to look at
that Food Storage info in the PFTF section. _________________ http://www.LASIK-FLAP.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
back when the internet was introduced to the general public i used to hear alot of talk about how its decentralized organization meant it could withstand major upheaval and still function. That was built in when the military first conceived of it. i wonder how stable it will really be in its current shape, given some of the possible calamities we talk about around here.
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
aflurry wrote:
back when the internet was introduced to the general public i used to hear alot of talk about how its decentralized organization meant it could withstand major upheaval and still function. That was built in when the military first conceived of it. i wonder how stable it will really be in its current shape, given some of the possible calamities we talk about around here.
The network itself is stable- the data is not. At some point, someone pays for warehousing and traffic for all this data. I've always wondered what a real dollar figure would be in terms of what it is costing to put up the entire internet, man-hours plus cost.
These data arks are pretty great, especially if you're going where there isn't power supplies or telecommunications. Hard drives and batteries in two laptops are going to be my basic data stores. Hard drives aren't perfect storage, and computer access isn't simple or foolproof. Internet access will become judicious. I would suggest redundant, very low power, high-efficiency systems with mirrored drives. And lots of spare parts. And a place to store the equipment that is impervious to shocks.
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
httrack+bzip2=the shiz. HD longevity is an issue, but with backups and proper storage, including no shocks/dust, I think a sizeable archive could be kept fora few decades if need be. _________________
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
so i decided to download the mirror of wikipedia from their site, download.wikimedia.org I'v uncompressed the file so it's now in an xml format. How do i get this so i can view it as a 'normal' wikipedia page if you can or is there something else i can do?
Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
Spent 30 years of my life working with computing, hardware and software. steam_cannon is steering you correctly for certain.
Make yourself define what you absolutely must have in the way
of data. Put it to paper, good paper (acid free) and put it in safe
storage. Make your must have information accessible with only
two required resources, light and working eyeballs.
If you must archive digital, choose media like laser burnt discs over magnetic storage such as hard drives. Semiconductor based storage like Flash (thumb drives) are projected to retain data for 100years if the temperature is kept around 70F, less if not. What will be available to read or read and translate to the latest digital
archive format into the future? Who knows, a total crap shoot for sure.
I am reading a small book on basic chemistry written with the viewpoint that the reader is familiar with the basics of village life,
and food preparation, and industry of 1880 England, and then
providing the technical explanations of the underlying chemistry,
and now being read as guidance for using the knowledge in
reverse.
A book, 127 years old, holding up well, and slides into my coat pocket, no power required to access the data, and I believe this is just about impossible to beat.
Paper covers rock and successfully avoids scissors.
Paper wins.
Joined: Dec 26, 2006 Posts: 241 Location: Eastern Washington
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
Wikipedia isn't 'the internet'.
Most of the large companies (including the one I work for-Yahoo) are building their cutting edge datacenters close to the columbia river (Yahoo, Microsoft, Google, Intuit).
Katana Industries is also in the area :D
Rogo _________________ "Those who long for exaltation look upwards, but I look downward for I am the exalted."
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
efarmer wrote:
Spent 30 years of my life working with computing, hardware and software. steam_cannon is steering you correctly for certain.
Make yourself define what you absolutely must have in the way
of data. Put it to paper, good paper (acid free) and put it in safe
storage. Make your must have information accessible with only
two required resources, light and working eyeballs.
If you must archive digital, choose media like laser burnt discs over magnetic storage such as hard drives. Semiconductor based storage like Flash (thumb drives) are projected to retain data for 100years if the temperature is kept around 70F, less if not. What will be available to read or read and translate to the latest digital
archive format into the future? Who knows, a total crap shoot for sure.
I am reading a small book on basic chemistry written with the viewpoint that the reader is familiar with the basics of village life,
and food preparation, and industry of 1880 England, and then
providing the technical explanations of the underlying chemistry,
and now being read as guidance for using the knowledge in
reverse.
A book, 127 years old, holding up well, and slides into my coat pocket, no power required to access the data, and I believe this is just about impossible to beat.
Paper covers rock and successfully avoids scissors.
Paper wins.
Okay, I agree these are solid points, but in my experience:
1: A hard drive will hold more data in the physical amount of space, compared to paper, CDs, or DRAM.
2: The software for data recovery and error correction is established for HDs and RAID.
3: By archiving large (HD) amounts of data, you can circumvent the problem of not knowing exactly what you're going to need before you need it- AND- improving the chances you're going to be able to access unknown needed data later.
I'm currently learning Chemistry. I have a textbook (Zumdahl's 5th ed.) What might be the name/author of the book you describe?
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1361 Location: New York area
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
What makes you think there will be no Internet in the future? The amount of data that can be stored on a chip has been doubling every two years. The Internet will not collapse unless society as a whole collapses. It has become as indispensable as the telephone. _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
Narz wrote:
What makes you think there will be no Internet in the future? The amount of data that can be stored on a chip has been doubling every two years. The Internet will not collapse unless society as a whole collapses. It has become as indispensable as the telephone.
I disagree. When was the last time you picked up the modem to say Hello to grandma?
The issue as it is discussed here is data access and retrieval where there is no internet, but more importantly, no networked data source, no potential plug-in electricity, etc. This still describes most of the world. The amount of data that can fit on a chip can continue to double ad nauseum. This is not going to make connectivity or access more likely in, say, Madagascar.
Look at it this way. You don't pay the $50 bill to keep access on in your house, Telco pulls the plug. Your impressive computer is now useless. The Internet is like a warehouse of free knowledge, your access connection is like a rental pass. The illusion of permanence is why people don't develop offline resources. The promise of 100% uptime is the cover by which access companies charge you for access time that you aren't using. Remember Enron commercials pre-bankruptcy? Why are you paying for internet access you aren't using?
My secondary point is that internet companies are paying to allow access to their hosted data. You are surfing on someone else's ability to pay. You pay Comcast, but they don't provide the data, just the access. The internet's viability as a data resource is dependent on someone's ability to deliver information on demand. And providing data is not a cost-free endeavor. Neither is delivering it.
Both data and access could conceivably simply outpace inflation. It takes energy to run a server farm. The server farms on the Columbia are going to compete with the western electrical grids. It is again a situation of the commons. Google's servers use power stolen from fish to, for example, redirect information requests about Tienanmen Square to State propaganda for millions of Chinese. There is nothing about the internet's architecture that is indestructable or impervious. Any large group, from Google to the military, can turn it off or on whenever they want. Large scale attempts at thwarting Net access have been launched by hackers. A severed underwater optical trunk line can make the entire net a tangled mess of traffic.
Now, everything people do is online. Data, access, applications, communication. The connection is everything. Some of us have a working memory of a time when computers did stuff and were never connected to a network.
I'm learning Orienteering and map reading. Why? Because the Chinese have the rocketry technology to knock GPS out of action. Because without a simple thing like batteries, there is no GPS device, and may as well be no satellites. Its interesting that some of the primary function of a GPS device is interpreting a compass and a map. Neither is so complicated that relying on GPS is essential or even desirable given the possible problems.
Lets say you move off-grid, make a settlement, and want to home-school your kids. Do you lug the entire encyclopedia britannica out to the sticks? Or do you use a small, simple piece of the whole technological realm in a smart way to provide this service? Its worth it to consider offline access even if you live in a city.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1361 Location: New York area
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Arks of Knowledge- Internet on Hard Drive
Ok, you make good points. I could see scenarios coming to pass making Internet access for the average person super expensive. And if you wanted to be "off the grid" home access might not be worth it even at a low cost.
Re : your grandma analogy though many people (particularly those in different countries) do use the Internet as their primary communication.
Probably smart to learn map reading & whatever "primitive" skills you can. Even if society somehow manages to crawl continuously "forward" for some time it is good for your brain.
It's so so hard to resist the easy. The cheap calories, soundbites, ICE's. I think designing a life where the easy but harmful is no longer easy & making the hard but rewarding a habit is the key.
I'm going off on a tangent though. It would be cool to create an offline "personal Internet" if only to keep yourself focused on what is essential & eliminate distractions. _________________ My PO Amazon store (shameless plug).
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