Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
cube wrote:
threadbear wrote:
...
JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, all took bullets because they essentially tried to reduce the threat of incipient fascism in the U.S. Had they not been killed your country would look a lot like a European social democracy. It's not all a cultural demographic problem.
*delicate cough*
There IS a big cultural difference between Europe and America. The USA is less socialistic and I make no apologies for it. One obvious difference is that we have this saying --> "The American Dream".
If society believes that you can move up in life through honest effort and hard work then that kind of takes away the enthusiasm for socialistic programs. This is why I believe for example (much to the disappointment of Ms. Clinton and die-hard liberals) we will NEVER have universal health care.
In France, a quarter of the population lives in government-subsidised housing complexes, known as HLM
That is absolutely unthinkable to an American!
*cough* The American dream was built on a petro dollar and a govt on a permanent war footing. (How is govt warfare not a form of socialism? It's a large centrally planned function, that eats up 50% of the tax base) Actually, it's always been more of a shared hallucination than a dream..and it's quickly becoming a nightmare.
The greatest absurdity some Americans pay homage to is the notion that everyone can be rich if they just work hard enough. The law of averages says this isn't a remote possiblity. But people who believe this nonsense end up endorsing policies that actually make them more poor and the wealthy more wealthy.
Last edited by threadbear on Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3154 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
namenick wrote:
the Iraqi people have become the enemy and we are hearing the same sort of hate rhetoric about them.
I don't think anyone knee-jerk hates all of the Iraqi people. I don't think anyone hates Iraqis who are trying to lead a peaceful life. We hate the insurgents, and that's understandable. We hate the ethnic death squads that are merely prolonging our stay there by killing eachother--forcing us into being some kind of referree in a civil war. The problem is that there are those (probably you included) who want to try to get us to feel empathy for car bombers or IED planters on the basis of some kind of collective personal guilt that the west should bear for their actions. Sorry, I believe in personal responsibility. We should be out of Iraq but I have no compassion for people who do those things. There is no excuse.
namenick wrote:
The extreme is Ann Coulter
That's fringe and you know it.
namenick wrote:
Then we hear about the US military slaughtering Iraqi civilians and even are shown an incident in a mosque where an American soldier/marine is shown shooting an Iraqi in cold blood because he had the nerve to move or beg for help. And we just know that for every incident we see on t.v. because of mistake in censoring a reporter, there are hundred happening.
It is not the professed goal of the US military to "slaughter Iraqi civilians". While it's bad to see these things, there is a self-correcting mechanism to investigate them. Is there a similar mechanism within the Iraqi insurgency that attempts to minimize civilian casualties? They don't give a damn!
As usual, people such as yourself like double-standards if it suits your political aims.
namenick wrote:
Why do I ask? Because I have made it my mission to uncover the evil every chance I get.
Need I fill up this post with hundreds if not thousands of cases of Iraqi atrocities, mostly Iraqi on Iraqi violence? Such incidents require no "uncovering" but you seem completely disinterested in them.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
threadbear wrote:
The greatest absurdity some Americans pay homage to is the notion that everyone can be rich if they just work hard enough. The law of averages says this isn't a remote possiblity. But people who believe this nonsense end up endorsing policies that actually make them more poor and the wealthy more wealthy.
I never said American culture made sense, I'm just pointing out an observation and explaining why certain things in Europe might get the "green light" but would never see the light of day over here. Every culture on this planet has at least one bizarre rule that people adhere to which doesn't pass the logic test.
As for getting rich you're right. Statistically speaking Joe Sixpack has a snowball's chance in hell of getting rich but that still doesn't stop Americans from keeping their eyeball glued to the real estate market or stock market or whatever happens to be the hot new make $$$ without work fad that's currently in style. American culture is the world capitol in the belief of "put 1 in get 3 out: aka getting something from nothing" That's why we invented things like Las Vegas and also the
Thighmaster!
Who the hell could be stupid enough to think you can get legs like that for only $19.95?.......that one infomercial product made $100 million! See what I mean?
As for endorsing policies that ultimately feed money to the rich under the guise of helping out the middle class:
1) 401K retirement system
2) deducting home mortgage interest from income taxes
3) government insuring home mortgage loans
4) IRA retirement accounts
Idiotic liberals who insist on raising income taxes when only middle class people seriously pay income taxes. The "truly" rich (the top 5%) on the other hand make their bread and butter off what is known as "capital gains" and therefore the bulk of their taxes are capital gains taxes.....NOT income taxes. A ridiculously funny example would be Steve Jobs who technically makes an income of only $1 per year. Clever people (who lack restraint) will always profit from the clueless.
Yes Americans are suckers or at least 51% of the population is which is all you need to get a law passed. But then again something tells me we're not the only ones!
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
namenick, I can honestly tell you that I have been
in the company of average folks, intelligentsia, and the most
biased and ignorant folks that my area can muster in the course
of life and business. Being white and Christian and usually not
prone to confronting people I instead absorb their opinions and
move on. I therefore feel I have an excellent read on the hate
and scapegoat list around here. And rather than wishing to see
people shot or dead, the more common thread is that "they" are
coming for our jobs, our goodies, or to blow us up and kill us.
(Very similar to the post PO zombie phobia that roosts here.)
Murky fears are like that namenick, they are all about incoming
and don't get to outgoing actions unless the feared thing becomes
manifest.
There is absolutely no tangible hate or desire to harm Russians
or Slavic people anywhere in my travels in my adult life. There
may be a faint memory in the older people of "the Reds" which
was a one size fits all bag of unknowns from the cold war era.
(The same "Reds" who make our consumer goods now.)
The few Russians and Ukrainians that I have met, are readily
accepted and seem to thrive and enjoy living here. Some have
told me in conversations that there is a deep sadness and sense
of foreboding in Russia that almost seems endemic, and that the
people are used to hardship and almost expect it. We on the
other hand, think money grows on trees and Mickey Mouse is
going to make everything OK. It sounds like if you averaged us
together, you would have a reasonably adjusted set of folks.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
Back to super tuesday issues. I don't hate Hillary at all but I was not
pleased with the notion of inevitability, which implied that an entire
party had absolutely no choice due to a candidate being preordained
before the people were invited to opine. That notion was as vile to me
as is the oppression of women, especially unequal pay. But I did
laught when I saw this comment on a blog:
"We are the President. We will triangulate you. Resistance is futile."
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
mos wrote:
Quote:
I don't think anyone knee-jerk hates all of the Iraqi people. I don't think anyone hates Iraqis who are trying to lead a peaceful life. We hate the insurgents, and that's understandable. We hate the ethnic death squads that are merely prolonging our stay there by killing eachother--forcing us into being some kind of referree in a civil war. The problem is that there are those (probably you included) who want to try to get us to feel empathy for car bombers or IED planters on the basis of some kind of collective personal guilt that the west should bear for their actions. Sorry, I believe in personal responsibility. We should be out of Iraq but I have no compassion for people who do those things. There is no excuse.
You miss the point completely and the reason you Americans consistently miss the point is because you are incapable of condemning your war and your ongoing occupation of Iraq. There is no excuse as you say but that needs to be elaborated upon.
There was no excuse to invade Iraq and there is no excuse for the US to remain in Iraq. It is a war of aggression and it is for oil. The Iraqi people don't want you there and they will kill your military people every opportunity they get. They now hate Americans and with good cause.
You are quick with your condemnation of Sunnis killing Shiites and vice versa of course but you conveniently ignore Americans killing Iraqis because you obviously consider your cause a higher cause. It's not. In fact it's a much less warranted cause in Iraq. It's not your country and you shouldn't be there. And beside the fact that Americans are the cause of the violence between the religous sects and ethnic sects in Iraq, Americans are also the cause of violence against Iraqis.
Saddam's Iraq was the most prosperous and modern country of all the Arab ME states prior to the US invasion for oil in 1990. That was the reason for the war of course. And before that the US interference and the covert and overt aid to both Iraq and Iran was the cause of most of their problems. It was intentional of course because wealth, prosperity, and power wa coming to those countries through their oil wealth. Don't try to sell us any more of your US pap and bullshit because we have long ago seen through it.
efarmer- If you haven't heard the sentiment expressed by Americans that not one more Americans life is worth the war then you lead a sheltered life. If you haven't heard Americans say that your country should just nuke Iraq then you aren't paying attention. Don't try to tell me it doesn't exist because I happen to be able to quote instances of the hate for Iraqis coming from Americans. All you can do is continue to claim that it is not many Americans who feel that way. I happen to believe that there are few Americans who give a lick for the lives of the Iraqi people and that they don't bat an eye when they learn of the slaughter which is taking place. Place yourself aside from them and as a decent person if you like. I have no interest in arguing the point with individuals in the least.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
There are the actions of governments, the actions of
zealots of several types, and then there are everyday people. You are talking to everyday people and looking for us to reflect the hate and atrocity you see or you fear. Start a thread for your issue namenick and explore it as you are inspired to do. This is an incredibly free forum. But your quest has little to do with super Tuesday and American politics and you have every right to establish a thread that is strictly devoted to your main topic, which if I am understanding you, is "Do Americans believe their lives are more valuable than any other nation or culture?" You seem to suppose a solidarity of evil and shared purpose that doesn't exist here or in almost any other place on earth in my opinion. I have done the best to tell you the truth to the extent I know it and wish you well.
Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton denied Monday that her campaign is in trouble after losing to Barack Obama in four weekend voting contests and replacing her campaign manager.
"I'm still ahead in the popular vote and in delegates," Clinton said.
Speaking to reporters after touring a General Motors plant outside Baltimore, Clinton said she feels very good about the state of the race, even though she is not expected to win any victories between now and March 4, when voters in Texas and Ohio cast ballots.
Momentum matters. If all we get is a steady diet of Obama wins between now and March 4, it is going to have a very significant effect on the vote in those two key states. Many people will switch to Obama if the news about him continues to be so relentlessly positive.
She's in real trouble. _________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
Last edited by Zardoz on Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
Namenik, There is no such thing as "you Americans" There are the aware and the unaware. But I agree about your take on the war, particularly that Iraq was partly a victim of it's own success, as was Lebanon. NO COUNTRY, with the exception of Israel is allowed to reach a position of prominance, in the ME or it is considered a de facto threat to Israel and is then bombed back to the stone age. Various excuses are made, but that's what it boils down to. It's about oil, being on a permanent war footing and supporting Israel, another country moving towards an economic base built around war.
Joined: Jun 20, 2007 Posts: 498 Location: USS Poland
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
If a guy called Barrack Hussein Obama gets elected as a president of the United States of America I'm going to drink vodka all the weekend. The very notion that he may be a president is quite funny - quite the opposite of the standard image of the American politics.
I know it's a PR campaign, but you need geniously made campaign to convince people that brand Obama is great. There is a great PR strategy behind him, there must be fantastic team working - he says nothing 90% of time e.g. "Yes, we can", but look closely how it's packaged.
I'm shocked and awed, I thought Hillary will get this easily...
@Zardoz, another great avatar in your collection Can be outdated in few weeks. _________________ The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
threadbear wrote:
Namenik, There is no such thing as "you Americans" There are the aware and the unaware. But I agree about your take on the war, particularly that Iraq was partly a victim of it's own success, as was Lebanon. NO COUNTRY, with the exception of Israel is allowed to reach a position of prominance, in the ME or it is considered a de facto threat to Israel and is then bombed back to the stone age. Various excuses are made, but that's what it boils down to. It's about oil, being on a permanent war footing and supporting Israel, another country moving towards an economic base built around war.
You've got it right of course threadbear but let me tell you why I disagree with the 'aware' and 'unaware' idea. Some Americans are aware of what you just said but would rather not state in as few words. If you listen to them carefully you will hear them saying the same thing though. Some Americans are truly unware of the facts but we try to just ignore that kind of idiot who still thinks the US is in Iraq doing it for the Iraqi people. duhhhhh! But most important are those who pretend that they are not aware when in fact they are intelligent enough to be aware of the truth. I think the problem for most part with that group is that they are in denial of the facts because their patriotism controls their thoughts. I understand that it must be very difficult for those Americans because some may have brothers, sisters, and children in Iraq and they can't very well admit to their guilt without betraying their famlity members. My point is that it's not a matter of awareness so much as it is denial. I feel no pity for them and their feelings because their feelings pale in comparison to the millions of dead Iraqi civilians whose families have feelings too.
And I don't think we are the exception in what we believe about the reason for the Iraq war. I think we are in the large majority, perhaps as high as 90% or better of the people in all countries.
Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
efarmer wrote:
Back to super tuesday issues. I don't hate Hillary at all but I was not
pleased with the notion of inevitability, which implied that an entire
party had absolutely no choice due to a candidate being preordained
before the people were invited to opine. That notion was as vile to me
as is the oppression of women, especially unequal pay. But I did
laught when I saw this comment on a blog:
Maybe that's why she's losing!
Putting aside political differences and just talking about personality issues. I never did like Hillary even waaaaay back when Bill Clinton was in office. She always had that "holier than thou attitude"......."if you don't agree with me it's because you haven't been 'educated' to see the truth." The idea that a person may have done their homework and understands the pros and cons of an issue very clearly but chooses a different option because they value other things is a foreign concept to her. Yes I specifically remember Hillary saying how she helped "educate" the public.
Obama doesn't have this attitude. He just has TONS of charisma. Personality wise I don't know anybody who hates him.
PORTSMOUTH — Rochester physician Terry Bennett said he rented a city building to people who worked for Sen. Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign — and skipped town without paying the bill.
Making matters worse, Bennett said, the 3,000-square-foot building at 236 Union St. was left trashed. Campaign signs were left lying all over the place, he said.
"It's a very nice little building, with an 1,800-foot warehouse and the rest can be offices," Bennett said. "There's a full kitchen and bath. They used it as a campaign center and dormitory. I expected them to hand the Realtor a check as they left. They did not."
Joined: Sep 17, 2006 Posts: 623 Location: No man's land
Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Super Tuesday - And Beyond
namenick wrote:
threadbear wrote:
Namenik, There is no such thing as "you Americans" There are the aware and the unaware. But I agree about your take on the war, particularly that Iraq was partly a victim of it's own success, as was Lebanon. NO COUNTRY, with the exception of Israel is allowed to reach a position of prominance, in the ME or it is considered a de facto threat to Israel and is then bombed back to the stone age. Various excuses are made, but that's what it boils down to. It's about oil, being on a permanent war footing and supporting Israel, another country moving towards an economic base built around war.
You've got it right of course threadbear but let me tell you why I disagree with the 'aware' and 'unaware' idea. Some Americans are aware of what you just said but would rather not state in as few words. If you listen to them carefully you will hear them saying the same thing though. Some Americans are truly unware of the facts but we try to just ignore that kind of idiot who still thinks the US is in Iraq doing it for the Iraqi people. duhhhhh! But most important are those who pretend that they are not aware when in fact they are intelligent enough to be aware of the truth. I think the problem for most part with that group is that they are in denial of the facts because their patriotism controls their thoughts. I understand that it must be very difficult for those Americans because some may have brothers, sisters, and children in Iraq and they can't very well admit to their guilt without betraying their famlity members. My point is that it's not a matter of awareness so much as it is denial. I feel no pity for them and their feelings because their feelings pale in comparison to the millions of dead Iraqi civilians whose families have feelings too.
And I don't think we are the exception in what we believe about the reason for the Iraq war. I think we are in the large majority, perhaps as high as 90% or better of the people in all countries.
99% of Americans are not in a position to criticize the government's actions in Iraq because of their immense personal consumption of oil, directly and indirectly. So I agree that there is a lot of surface acknowledgement of the atrocities occurring over there, but very few people are going to ride their bike to work because their conscience is killing them.
It's just like anything else. Most people know that buying organic is better for the environment but aren't going to sacrifice that extra buck even if they can afford it. _________________ "It is no measure of health to be deemed sane in an insane society" J. Krishnamurti
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