Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3647 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Props vs Jet propulsion is mostly a matter of how fast you need to go. They can easily make jet engines small enough for Censa size private aircraft, but because those planes are mostly used for small hops from place to place where air traffic is as big a factor in travle time as is speed they usually have propellors which are more fuel efficient at slower speeds. If the take off and landing cycle costs you 30 minutes and the plane is a prop job and takes 60 minutes to travle do you really gain anything by switching to a jet and making the trip in 40 minutes instead? 20 minutes of your time is a small investment compared to the expense of a private jet. Now if you are going halfway across the continent the added time does make a difference, at the end of WW II the USAAF made the first transcontinental flights in a little over nine hours. You can make the same trip today in a jet in five, if you go non-stop. Then again if My airline offers you the ticket for half price but takes twice as long would I be able to get the low cost travler market? (Just as an example, I don't have an airline to test the theory with!)
Another question, if this technology works for leading edges of wings, which some of the science indicates, how much cheaper will flying become? Or rather, how much more fuel cost increase will the airlines be able to withstand? _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Tanada wrote:
Another question, if this technology works for leading edges of wings,
which some of the science indicates, how much cheaper will flying
become? Or rather, how much more fuel cost increase will the airlines
be able to withstand?
Also I'm curious whether this has applications for jet engines and steam turbines. If it's applible to
steam turbines it could have a major impact on conventional power generation.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3647 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
steam_cannon wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Another question, if this technology works for leading edges of wings,
which some of the science indicates, how much cheaper will flying
become? Or rather, how much more fuel cost increase will the airlines
be able to withstand?
Also I'm curious whether this has applications for jet engines and steam turbines. If it's applible to
steam turbines it could have a major impact on conventional power generation.
Combine a jet turbine that is 20% more efficient with a wing that is 20% more efficient and your energy costs for flying just got cut [{100*.8}*.8]=64, a 36% gain in efficiency or equivelent reduction in costs. IF IT WORKS.
Like I said somewhere or other, if this works it will revolutionize fluid dynamics for everything we pump or displace. Thematically any aircraft displaces airflow.
I want to see tests on a bow and arrow, put these bumps down the sides of the arrowhead, does it fly further and faster? If the theory is correct then the answer will be yes. That also means the addition of a small set of tubercles around the wind shroud at the top of space launch vehicles, Surface to air, air to air, air to surface missiles for military applications will all get a big energy boost for any in the air portion of their flight. That means you can use a smaller size rocket to carry the same payload be it a defensive or offensive weapon.
Hell if THAT works you could put a ring of them around the nose cone of an aircraft and reduce drag on the fuselage.
Crap this really will change everything IF IT WORKS! Everything I learned about fluid-dynamics will be obsolete. Well not obsolete exactly, but this will add a huge new sub-field of modeling and experimentation.
Does anyone know, do Humpback whales have Tubercles on their snouts? _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Tanada wrote:
Like I said somewhere or other, if this works it will revolutionize fluid dynamics for everything we pump or displace. Thematically any aircraft displaces airflow.
I think you're over estimating the impact on all fronts, but especially in pumping fluids. Many pumps use a flexible impeller inside a housing that counts on sealing to push the fluid. I don't see how breaking that seal with bumps would help anything. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Tanada wrote:
Does anyone know, do Humpback whales have Tubercles on their snouts?
Dolphin Tech VS Whale Tech
Those look like Tubercles to me...
However, I also want to add that the main advantage of these bumps
on the flippers anyway, is for evening out stall conditions and
preventing complete stall at steep angles. For windmills this eliminates
shimmy, energy lost to stalls on the blade when the wind changes
direction and causes vibration... I'm not sure the effect this would
have on the head of a missile, but you can see them clearly there on
the head of this humpback whale, along with the dolphin on it's head too...
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
JRP3 wrote:
I think you're over estimating the impact on all fronts, but especially in
pumping fluids. Many pumps use a flexible impeller inside a housing
that counts on sealing to push the fluid. I don't see how breaking that
seal with bumps would help anything.
Flexible impellers might not be improved, unless putting bumps on
the non-sealing flat side improved fluid flow, made water break free
of the surface with less resistance or something.
But propeller pumps are definitely common as are ship propellers. So
there really is a large market of propellers that might be affected.
Quote:
propeller pumps
A wide application field:
# Any industrial transfer
# Agriculture draining and irrigation
# Flooding and recycling in pisciculture, ostreiculture and sheel-fish breeding
# Water draining in public works
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3647 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
steam_cannon wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Does anyone know, do Humpback whales have Tubercles on their snouts?
Dolphin Tech VS Whale Tech
Those look like Tubercles to me...
However, I also want to add that the main advantage of these bumps
on the flippers anyway, is for evening out stall conditions and
preventing complete stall at steep angles. For windmills this eliminates
shimmy, energy lost to stalls on the blade when the wind changes
direction and causes vibration... I'm not sure the effect this would
have on the head of a missile, but you can see them clearly there on
the head of this humpback whale, along with the dolphin on it's head too...
Thanx for the pic. From the science page found HERE it seems to me that the tubercles create a specific kind of turbulent flow deflection in the fluid stream that causes a reduction in drag out of proportion from from their size and frequency.
If this proves to be the case then they would serve the same function for the body of the whale OR the fuselage of an object moving through air or water at high speed, either a submarine or an aircraft body for example MIGHT benefit. The fact that Humpbacks have these on their main body mass supports this theory, but it needs to be tested in windtunnels and/or water tanks to see just what benefits if any occur. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Tanada wrote:
The fact that Humpbacks have these on their main body mass
supports this theory, but it needs to be tested in windtunnels and/or
water tanks to see just what benefits if any occur.
The low tech approach would be to test this on a couple pool torpedoes.
Those are diving weights with fins that glide a long way though the water.
Another way to test this would be with arrows as you said or perhaps
what would be easier would be to test this on toy gliders. Just add
on the Tubercles on one glider and an equal amount of weight to
the other glider and test. Most toy stores usually have large foam
gliders that could be modified and balsawood gliders. You could buy
some funky stick on "googly eyes" from a craft store and try sticking
them onto gliders...
I'm thinking of trying something like this on some gliders eventually,
it certainly might be a way to win a balsawood flyer contest.
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1183 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Any ideas on how these "tubercles" are similar to (or not) vortex generators or air tabs or the dimples on golf balls? I know that some cars use dimples similar to those on golf balls, only larger, to improve air flow over the car body, but I have never researched the technology involved.
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
WisJim wrote:
Any ideas on how these "tubercles" are similar to (or not) vortex
generators or air tabs or the dimples on golf balls? I know that some
cars use dimples similar to those on golf balls, only larger, to improve
air flow over the car body, but I have never researched the technology involved.
I'm thinking the bumps would cause a close turbulent flow similar to
golf balls and possibly have the advantage of breaking up wave
fronts experienced in thick fluids or at high speeds. Or it just may be
like a bulb on a boat, reducing turbulence or pressure differences a
wing encounters over it's length.
A few pictures and links of possibly related things
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3647 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
JRP3 wrote:
Tanada wrote:
Like I said somewhere or other, if this works it will revolutionize fluid dynamics for everything we pump or displace. Thematically any aircraft displaces airflow.
I think you're over estimating the impact on all fronts, but especially in pumping fluids. Many pumps use a flexible impeller inside a housing that counts on sealing to push the fluid. I don't see how breaking that seal with bumps would help anything.
I may well be over estimating the impact of this breakthrough, only time will be able to fully answer that.
Could you give a link to the kind of pump you are talking about specifically? I am familier with centerfugal turbines, Axial turbines and piston pumps as well as flexible diaphram pumps that are actually a subset of piston pumps but I am having a hard time picturing the kind of pump you refer to above.
Tubercle technology should improve both centerfugal and axial turbines. I do not think it would improve piston or diaphram pumps but I have not looked into that application at all. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Tanada wrote:
I am having a hard time picturing the kind of pump you refer to above.
I think this is what JRP3 might be referring to.
Quote:
Flexible Impeller Pumps
Flexible impeller pumps are a type of Positive Displacement Pump.
They can pump wine with seeds and skin. They operate at low rpms
with low shear forces and thus do not damage wine.
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
Yeah, that's it. They are often used as self priming pumps, for example in boats. _________________ The shovel with a wheel - The Wovel.
http://wovel.com/
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Copying Whales, 20% more efficient windmills?
yesplease wrote:
Vortex generators ain't nothin' new. Heck, Mitsubishi even uses 'em on some cars.
Quote:
Vortex generators
A vortex generator creates a tip vortex which draws energetic,
rapidly-moving air from outside the slow-moving boundary layer into
contact with the aircraft skin. The boundary layer normally thickens
as it moves along the aircraft surface, reducing the effectiveness of
trailing-edge control surfaces; vortex generators can be used to
remedy this problem, among others, by re-energizing the boundary
layer. Vortex generators delay flow separation and aerodynamic
stalling; they improve the effectiveness of control surfaces (e.g
Embraer 170 and Symphony SA-160); and, for swept-wing transonic
designs, they alleviate potential shock-stall problems
(e.g. Harrier, Blackburn Buccaneer, Gloster Javelin).
Many aircraft carry vane vortex generators from time of
manufacture, but there are also after-market suppliers who sell VG
kits to improve the STOL performance of some light aircraft.
Yeah I'd say it falls under the category of vortex generator. But it
does seem a little more wild, building the vortex generators into the
leading edge instead of sticking them onto the wing. It's not a new
concept entirely, but it may be a more efficient application. Also
that article is a good demonstration that vortex generators work
and then probably do have potential for wind power applications...
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Heck, Mitsubishi even uses 'em on some cars. 
