Hoarding is exactly what the government is doing right now by filling the SPR, and frankly it's the best thing that could happen. It drives prices up. High prices encourage demand destruction. They also finance new well development. The hoarded oil gives us a buffer to fall back on once shortages become more prevalent. High prices are what we need in order to adapt to what's coming, and the sooner they happen, the better.
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
I think that very conservative people with money may tip the balance on social disorder. The poor are often responsible for bread riots etc., but I believe it is people with skin in the game that are responsible for finally pulling the trigger on things like Revolutions, and probably not intentionally. Look for example at the men behind the U.S. Revolution which all had money, Jefferson, Washington etc. Also, the American Civil War was started by the slave farmers. So, what is the proof that conservative people with skin in the game are getting pissed off? Here's a few examples, though I'm sure there's lots of others:
(1) lots of blogs like Tickerforum made up of admitted "capitalist" "republican" who are now pissed off at the bailouts:
(2) John Dean, former counsel to Nixon, writes a book called "Worse than Watergate" Amazon Books
These are just a few examples, but do pay attention to all the various conservatives, fiscal conservatives, that are really getting pissed off right now bc they can't make money based on traditional conservative prudence. They are pissed bc they are being punished as investors and taxpayers buy these bailouts that reek of socialism or any description but capitalism, by bailouts that defy traditional capitalism and reward bad behavior and, which in effect tax them without representation by moving these debts from private enterprise onto the taxpayers.
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Two things kind of scare me for social order.
#1 - Seeing how the Federal Reserve Bank is in a sense giving public support to the rich banking industry. Its kind of of a gray area. There is no actual funding to do this form the public coffers, but by its virtual free loan approach, the Fed is inflating the money supply, which is a like a tax on the public. I heard an NPR interview that pointed out that many of the beneficiaries of this largesse are the high rollers who still are getting their fabulous bonuses paid for their incompetence, as last year's numbers ignored much of the rot in the system. Also, don't weep for most of those losing their jobs at Bear Stearn, They'll exit with fat severance packages. More than most workers make in a decade and more than most low income workers will make in their lives.
#2 - Meanwhile, we find that in middle America, the newer autoworkers are making, in real terms, basically what their great grandfathers made in Henry Ford's time.
There seems to be a power structure that rewards the rich, even when incompetent, and punishes the poor, even when hard working. This is not a formula for a cohesive nation.
It seems that more and more, America is coming to resemble the worst excesses of the European world at the start of the 20th century, that lead to so much unrest and revolution and even led to adoption of many socialist ideas.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 611 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
There is one other option other than defaulting on loans to China or jacking up the tax, its called cutting back, works at our house. Yes we would probably have to cut back on the military, let others shoulder their share ( don't think it will happen) and one way or the other we will have to cut back on entitlements. We either do that ourselves, or China does it, or we just collapse. Revolution will not fill our pockets with money.
A despotic leader will be elected. Taxes will go up. They'll get passed down to the poorest. Money will be devalued. A revolution seems certain. _________________ People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement & cannibalism.
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Interesting that all the "food shortage" reports lately have led to this MSM news article saying the gov't's main fear is insurrection.
Quote:
Rice rationing -- food for thought
By John Browne
Sunday, April 27, 2008
"Food, glorious food," conjures the image of Oliver Twist and his brother orphans wailing over hunger in Dickensian England.
This past week, however, a shortage of food became an American reality.
Costco, Wal-Mart and other food stores limited the purchase of certain food staples in bulk form; purchases of rice in California, of oil and flour in Queens, were restricted. Customers were angry, wondering if the situation would worsen.
Our government talks heatedly about the threat of terrorism but its true fear is of insurrection. Today, the thought is that food shortages may be a catalyst for insurrection.
Historically, food shortages -- even in developed countries, such as England -- have sparked riots. In France and Russia, shortages of food led not only to riots but also to insurrection and, ultimately, to political revolution. Traditionally, food-based insurrection reaches it zenith on the backs of other political ills; the shortage of food often is the final straw that breaks the back of social order.
Food still is apparently plentiful in America. So why should Costco's rationing be of concern?
It is one thing for food to be plentiful in the shops. It is quite another for it to be unaffordable or inaccessible to individual families.
Food scarcity and partial rationing comes on the crest of a rising tide of apparent inequality in America. While Wall Street paid itself some $26 billion in bonuses last year, ordinary people were being squeezed financially. Some retired people even saw the value of their retirement funds decline substantially.
The most important financial asset of most American families is their home. In recent years, the borrowing base it offered was an added and important source of income. Last year, the subprime housing debacle eroded the home values of millions of Americans, even those who had borrowed prudently.
The reset of mortgage "teaser" ARMs increased the cash out-flow of many families. At the same time many house values slipped below the level of their equity, and foreclosures threatened. Middle-income households especially were hard hit.
This decline in real-estate values already has hit the tax base of local authorities, threatening a contraction of services; the poor are most affected. Furthermore, when families that provide the bulk of our armed forces see government spending in Iraq at some $12 billion a month while services decline at home, resentment can build.
In addition to a fall in average hourly wages, our Main Street economy is experiencing inflation far above the official rate. Many believe these government figures are politically "cooked" to the downside, partly to reduce Social Security payments. Again, this hits the poorer segments of our economy disproportionately.
For several months, the American economy has been in contraction; many jobs have been shed. Although still relatively low, the rising level of unemployment promotes job insecurity and financial fear.
While talking a strong dollar, the U.S. government leaves little doubt that it is persuing a deliberate policy of dollar debasement.
The dollar has depreciated by about 17 percent against a basket of currencies and 24 percent against the important euro over the past two years. This represents a stealth tax of about 10 percent a year on every man, woman and child who holds U.S. dollars. It is a tax that hits disproportionately hard at the poor.
The standard cost of living of ordinary folk is fast becoming unaffordable. Poor earnings posted by Starbucks illustrate how consumers are cutting back and that a recession now threatens, even a deep one. Recession is bad for almost everyone, with the poor suffering most severely.
Worse still, food is becoming more costly at a faster rate than many other items. Without proper nutrition, community health deteriorates in the short term while health costs explode in the longer term.
As Thomas Jefferson once said, "If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicine they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."
It is hard to imagine two more potent causes of insurrection than economic hardship accompanied by a denial of access to food, because of either physical restriction or a lack of affordability. This is true particularly when lower-income groups feel discriminated against in a national malaise.
In some countries, food shortages already are causing riots. The situation is so grave that many major food-producing countries, such as Argentina, China and Russia, are restricting food exports, driving prices even higher.
Raising the political temperature still more, the U.S. government is subsidizing farmers to grow crops (corn, wheat, soybeans) to burn as fuel. The recent, rapid rise in the price of oil and gas has led to a drive to capture energy from biofuels, such as ethanol. This has driven ever upward the prices of food chains such as wheat, beef, milk and even derivatives, such as chocolate made with milk.
Furthermore, healthy beef- and milk-producing cattle are being slaughtered to divert their feed-grains to ethanol.
Food prices have been a problem for several months due to a number of reasons, including droughts. Now food security threatens to become political dynamite.
For investors, food rationing and scarcity pose a moral and an ethical dilemma.
In an effort to avert food shortages in America, should the Federal Reserve Board lower or raise its interest rates? Lowering interest rates to avoid deepening recession would weaken the U.S. dollar, driving the dollar price of foodstuffs still higher. On the other hand, raising interest rates to curb inflation and to strengthen the U.S. dollar would mean a deepening of recession and a generally reduced ability to buy food.
The decision is difficult and complex. At the very least, it gives us all food for thought.
John Browne, a financial analyst and former member of Britain's Parliament, is a financial and political columnist for the Trib. He is a frequent commentator on CNBC's "Kudlow & Company." E-mail him at: johndbrowne@yahoo.com.
Keep in mind how desperate the situation is deemed to be when an ex-CIA analyst asked a retired Admiral and others like him to step forward and stop a sitting President. I understand where he is coming from, but you also have to be careful what you pray for.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 410 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Fishman wrote:
Yes we would probably have to cut back on the military, let others shoulder their share ( don't think it will happen)
Frankly, I think this is the one way the United States can possibly save the future for its posterity. Stop trying to climb a pile of money to control the universe. It's cheaper to pay for what you want and need than to pay huge sums to handful of contractors for weapons so cutting edge they may or may not work when called upon, and which are nearly impossible to replace in a timely fashion when expended. If the US were a regional power, it could probably afford its armed forces, would be able to defend itself from any likely attack, and would probably find it easier to gain co-operation in this hemisphere and abroad. It could be admired and respected again. And it could pay down the debt, though it will take time. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 410 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
seahorse2 wrote:
They are pissed bc they are being punished as investors and taxpayers buy these bailouts that reek of socialism or any description but capitalism, by bailouts that defy traditional capitalism and reward bad behavior and, which in effect tax them without representation by moving these debts from private enterprise onto the taxpayers.
Boy, I've seen some twisted logic in my time, but characterizing handing billions of dollars from millions of poor people to a few dozen rich people as "socialism" takes the cake. And all because it upsets OTHER rich people!
I think the word you're actually looking for isn't socialism. It's "plutocracy". And it's the inevitable upshot of unregulated capitalism. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
Quote:
Boy, I've seen some twisted logic in my time, but characterizing handing billions of dollars from millions of poor people to a few dozen rich people as "socialism" takes the cake. And all because it upsets OTHER rich people! Laughing
I think the word you're actually looking for isn't socialism. It's "plutocracy". And it's the inevitable upshot of unregulated capitalism.
Did I say the bailouts mean the US is now socialist and not a plutocracy? No. The section you quoted clearly said you can call these bailouts anything but a reflection of capitalism:
Quote:
They are pissed bc they are being punished as investors and taxpayers by these bailouts that reek of socialism or any description but capitalism,
If you were familiar with my posts, you would also know I have argued these gov't bailouts show we live in a plutocracy. If you search for plutocracy and seahorse I'm sure you will find the posts under the housing bust thread.
As for your accusation of twisted logic, is stating facts twisting logic? Is that possible? The articles I cited are reporting investors who are pissed that the Fed is attempting to intervene in the housing/credit downturn, meaning, not allowing capitalism to work. Its not simply, as you state, handing a few billions from poor people to a few rich people. In fact, I disagree that the planned program to keep housing prices from deflating will do anything to help "poor" people, bc it means housing will remain unaffordable to the poor. At any rate, the problem is gov't intervention which defies capitalism, and this is what irks the investors cited. The gov't is intervening and not allowing banks to fail and the gov't is intervening and allowing the GSE's to buy more bad home loans to keep home prices from deflated. This shifts a big debt burden onto the taxpayers who ultimately back the GSE loans. This also deflates the dollar which hurts anyone holding dollars, rich or poor. So, the "investors" are pissed at not allowing capitalism to work. I'm only stating the facts, not twisting any logic.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 410 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
seahorse2 wrote:
Did I say the bailouts mean the US is now socialist and not a plutocracy? No. The section you quoted clearly said you can call these bailouts anything but a reflection of capitalism
I understood you just fine. You're calling the bailouts socialistic, which is like calling cannibalism "health food", and suggesting that the bailouts are not capitalistic. On the contrary... rich people (in government) helping out rich people (in private industry) is what capitalism does when it gets its paws on all the levers. The only difference is the banks are in trouble, rather than offering to "feed the troops" or "build a new $1.2B stealth outhouse that won't appear on enemy radar so our boys can take a dump in peace".
seahorse2 wrote:
In fact, I disagree that the planned program to keep housing prices from deflating will do anything to help "poor" people
I don't think so either. Those idiotic loans should never have been permitted in the first place. But now, millions will lose their homes, and millions of investors (mostly the small-timers) will lose their savings, and the handful of douchebags who started it all will just get up from the tables of the "legal persons" that corporations are and walk away with bulging pockets, having voted themselves a bonus on the way out the door... thanks in part to taxpayers' money. How that in any way reflects the spirit or ethos of socialism escapes me.
seahorse2 wrote:
At any rate, the problem is gov't intervention which defies capitalism
It doesn't deny capitalism; it IS capitalism. Capitalism is deeply flawed; it lets a handful of virtually unaccountable people toy monstrously with national and even international economies. If the US government had any guts, it would immediately indict these people, strip them of their assets under RICO legislation, and then you'd see some bloody responsibility in the halls of vaunted "capitalism" again. As it is, it just gets shunted off onto the shoulders of the "corporation". It's all so unbelievably daffy that if it didn't exist in reality, you'd swear Douglas Adams had invented it from whole cloth in one of his novels.
seahorse2 wrote:
So, the "investors" are pissed at not allowing capitalism to work. I'm only stating the facts, not twisting any logic.
How, exactly, was it going to "work" for them if Bear Sterns (et al.) went broke, their investment vanished utterly, and the people whose savings were housed there went up in a puff of glorious capitalistic smoke? _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
We have digressed from the point of this thread, which is simply, are people in America getting pissed to the point of revolution? I see that you are pissed at what's going on, just like most people. So, I think that your posts are more evidence that the temperature is rising. How hot does it have to get? I don't know.
However, back on tangent:
Quote:
How, exactly, was it going to "work" for them if Bear Sterns (et al.) went broke, their investment vanished utterly, and the people whose savings were housed there went up in a puff of glorious capitalistic smoke?
Surely Bear Sterns going under hurts those investing in Bear Sterns, but saving it hurts those that were betting against them.
But, I don't want to bailout bankers for any reason, mainly political reasons. Like Jefferson said, they are the greatest threat to democracy. So the fewer the better.
Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Is America going to have a Revolution?
[quote=burtonridr]"Revolutions are most likely to occur when a prolonged period of objective economic and social development is followed by a short period of sharp reversal. The all-important effect on the minds of people in a particular society is to produce, during the former period, an expectation of continued ability to satisfy needs -- which continue to rise -- and, during the latter, a mental state of anxiety and frustration when manifest reality breaks away from anticipated reality.... Political stability and instability are ultimately dependent on a state of mind, a mood, in society...it is the dissatisfied state of mind rather than the tangible provision of 'adequate' or 'inadequate' supplies of food, equality, or liberty which produces the revolution."
James C. Davies[/quote]
That was out of the first page of the article..... I dont know about you but that guy read me like a book. That is exactly what I have gone through since finding out about peak oil. _________________ Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
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Then stop driving to work, duh..... 
