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Ibon
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| billg wrote: | | Look what has happened with the development of the tar sands in Alberto after oil prices shot up. |
I agree. The opening of the tar sands is a direct result of finding solutions to keep the unsustainable collective dream of consumption intact. It is simple economics. We aren't fixing anything but rather enabling an unsustainable system to continue.
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I think history will show that people become increasingly desperate and reckless as their ecosystems and natural resources are destroyed and depleted. As a result, the social/economic collapse is more like jumping off a skyscraper than sliding down a slide.
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For a short duration yes. But humans are resilient. A social and economic collapse will cause the collective cultural belief system to collapse as well. This is the fastest way to bring about a collapse of the unsustainable consumption dream culture. There will be a resetting of the cultural dream. The birth of a new set of dreams. There will continue to be exploitation of resources but the infrastructure machinery to do this will be greatly reduced. I don't see the mad max scenario of people scrambling over each other fighting over ever diminishing resources. I see people pulling together out of neccesity and thus building a new cultural framework where labor, cooperation, community and sustainable environmental practices are understood as basic moral tenants of civil life. This can give rise to the birth of a new eco religious type of morality where for example an eleventh commandment would be added to some morphed christianity that would state that thou shalt not breed beyond the carrying capacity of your environment.
New beliefs rise out of hardship and failure and out of the ashes of previous paradigms that have run their course.
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Ibon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ludi wrote: | | Ibon wrote: | [
I have to emphasize that we cannot be agents of instability to the idealogical dream boat if we are not at the same time able to embrace the truth that the physical reality boat must also be sabotaged, either by nature, our own collective stupidity or by intelligent interventions. |
What, specifically are you advocating? Blowing up dams, etc?
Or something less dramatic, such as withdrawing our support from the infrastructure? |
Energy Unlimited has done a fine job of specifics. Just to clarify I do not advocate breaking any laws or doing acts of eco-terrorism. I can clean a fish and slaughter a chicken but that is about as far as I can go personally in commiting direct acts of violence 
We all have to remember that our species in the current state of severe overshoot has collectively become a huge cumbersome beast on the planet with a life of its own. As individuals we are limited to change this especially if you pause a moment and reflect on the fact that atleast 95% of the industrial world (about 2 billion of us) wants to preserve their existing lifestyle and that another 2.5 bilion (china/india/brazil etc.) want to join the party.
being 1/6,600,000th of this huge organism there is not much that I can specifically do as an individual but wherever I see the opportunity to act with my vote or actions to weaken the resiliency of Kudzu Ape I will do so. For reasons I have explained abundantly clear.
I find most advocates of sustainability who refuse to acknowledge the reality of overshoot to be hypocrites at worse or well meaning but delusional at best. Under the banner of sustainability and new technologies most are really advocates of not disrupting the status quo which is based on an infrastructure that is impossible to maintain without continuing devestating consequences to our biosphere.
I peer in the cracks that are forming and see the beginnings of change and solutions. I do not want to add mortar to those cracks with solutions that keep the columns and infrastructure intact. I want to help widen those cracks whereever possible.
I speak in metaphors because our cultures are made up of dreams and metaphors, propped up by physical infrastructure systems that in our modern times are fossil fuel derived.
You want a paradigm shift? Accelerate the collapse of the physical infrastructure as quickly as possible.
Energy Unlimited stated this clearly. A drawn out winding down of overshoot will be far worse.
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EnergyUnlimited
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ibon wrote: | | I don't see the mad max scenario of people scrambling over each other fighting over ever diminishing resources. I see people pulling together out of neccesity and thus building a new cultural framework where labor, cooperation, community and sustainable environmental practices are understood as basic moral tenants of civil life. |
Our path to the latter (new ecologically aware societies) will lead through the former (ruin of current one, destitution, anarchy in Mad Max style, dieoff etc).
That is optimistic scenario.
Pessimistic scenario would be a permanent collapse into a global Easter Island or alternatively collapse into a global mess filled with failed states. |
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Ibon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| billg wrote: | | DENIAL runs so deep in the human collective psyche that it will require something quite extraordinary to wake people up. |
Well said. Only extraordinary consequences will bring this about.
I support the speedy arrival of those consequences and not only will I not stop or try to slow them down but I will try to accelerate their arrival in what ever small infantissimal way I can being a mere 1/6,600,000th contributor.
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Ludi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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edited
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Last edited by Ludi on Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zardoz
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| EnergyUnlimited wrote: | | ...or alternatively collapse into a global mess filled with failed states. |
I don't see how that can be avoided. It's decades away, but it seems inevitable.
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Ludi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ibon wrote: | | Under the banner of sustainability and new technologies most are really advocates of not disrupting the status quo which is based on an infrastructure that is impossible to maintain without continuing devestating consequences to our biosphere. |
I agree.
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davep
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ludi wrote: | | Ibon wrote: | | Under the banner of sustainability and new technologies most are really advocates of not disrupting the status quo which is based on an infrastructure that is impossible to maintain without continuing devestating consequences to our biosphere. |
I agree. |
That's why solutions generally need to be local and small-scale. As soon as big business gets their mucky paws on any potentially useful solution, they subvert it to their own goals, namely profit. There's a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if we assume that something such as biofuels is bad purely because their implementation by big business distorts the process so much that it no longer has any genuine benefits.
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Ludi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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Very few of the mainstream spokespeople for "sustainability" seem to talk about local solutions, they seem to be focused on widescale, or corporate scale, projects.
At least that's what seems to come up in the news. You know, ethanol, etc.
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davep
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ludi wrote: | Very few of the mainstream spokespeople for "sustainability" seem to talk about local solutions, they seem to be focused on widescale, or corporate scale, projects.
At least that's what seems to come up in the news. You know, ethanol, etc. |
That's why they're mainstream. There's a whole movement out there, and you're part of it. They can't stop us, despite widespread slaughter of homestead chickens in the third world, banning on-farm distillation, banning small-scale slaughtering etc etc. Joel Salatin hit the nail on the head with "Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal".
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Ludi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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That's why I advocate not flouncing, flying under the radar.
Everything I want to do might be illegal, but nobody needs to know about it.
So far, this has worked great.
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Ibon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| EnergyUnlimited wrote: | | Ibon wrote: | | I don't see the mad max scenario of people scrambling over each other fighting over ever diminishing resources. I see people pulling together out of neccesity and thus building a new cultural framework where labor, cooperation, community and sustainable environmental practices are understood as basic moral tenants of civil life. |
Our path to the latter (new ecologically aware societies) will lead through the former (ruin of current one, destitution, anarchy in Mad Max style, dieoff etc).
That is optimistic scenario.
Pessimistic scenario would be a permanent collapse into a global Easter Island or alternatively collapse into a global mess filled with failed states. |
I agree. I would only add that current efforts to invest in real sustainable technologies are worthwhile and should also be encouraged since these can act as the physical infrastructure foundations for a new cultural paradigm.
Some may see some inherent contradiction in advocating the collapse of the current infrastructure at the same time as you advocate advances in sustainable solutions.
We are walking the knifes edge. Innovation without collapse will extend the overshoot far into the future and will cause even more exponential problems. But collapse without the infrastructure seeds of a new paradigm in place could mean a long extended appointment with primitive technologies before any renaissance.
Our overshoot as a species has reached a dimension where we have pretty much surrendered our fate over to forces that are becoming increasingly difficult to control. We can witness and be observers of the consequences of what we have created (as in global warming) but are losing the race in any longer being masters of our destiny.
There is an aspect of this discussion which is academic at this point.
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Ludi
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ibon wrote: | | but are losing the race in any longer being masters of our destiny. |
Were we ever?
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davep
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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Here's a link to Salatin's Rant
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Ibon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hope in a boat that can't float. |
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| Ludi wrote: | Very few of the mainstream spokespeople for "sustainability" seem to talk about local solutions, they seem to be focused on widescale, or corporate scale, projects.
At least that's what seems to come up in the news. You know, ethanol, etc. |
There seems to be an arrogance out there that somehow a transition will happen through the thread of the mainstream. It is much more likely that isolated local communities who return to a focus on their local ecologies and economies will become the seeds of inventive and innovating sustainable cultures in the future. These will be convergent in nature, meaning that they will simultaneously come about in isolation. It is perhaps optimistic but not impossible to imagine some far distant date in the future when these isolated convergent sustainable communities can once again form alliances and give rise to a new sustainable civilization.
I agree that those immersed in the challenges of local sustainability at the community level are the real pioneers of our culture's future.
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