My backyard is terraced using retired railroad ties. After reading numerous websites, I understand there is considerable controversy regarding the toxicity of growing edible plants nearby the actual creosote treated ties. Questions such as distance from the tie, age of tie, type of plants, etc... seem to be unanswered in a definitive sense.
Anyone here have any anecdotal or empirical evidence to demonstrate how safe they are?
I hate to waste anything, so I also unknowingly used a few leftover pieces of what I believe to be pressure treated 6" boards as borders for one side of one of our many vegetable beds. It's NOT the old and no longer available chromated copper arsenate, it is the newer kind because it was bought in 2005. I read quite a few sites describing potential and real effects on the soil and plants. Some say it's negligible and some say it's unknown, so don't use the stuff.
Any ideas on using treated wood this from any vegetable gardeners here who are more knowledgeable than us... which is probably most of you? _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
There are some warnings out there about using creosote in the
garden but the warnings seem a bit overblown to me, the usual
concern seems to be the slight risk creosote poses for gardeners....
Here a few links looking at the different sides of the issue:
First off, take note of this. Creosote will not be absorbed by your
plants. It may damage them, but shouldn't contaminate food.
Quote:
Creosote can volatilize into the air, especially during hot
weather, and plant foliage in the vicinity of the ties may be
damaged by the vapors. It can also leach into the soil near the ties,
but it will not be absorbed by the roots and will therefore not
get into the plants' tissues.
When using railroad ties for raised beds or similar areas, avoid
putting plants too close to the wood. Keeping plants three of four
inches away should prevent damage. Also, don't ever use
creosote-treated wood in interior locations such as greenhouses,
since the vapors will damage or kill plants in them.
Pentachlorophenol, another restricted use chemical, has also been
used to treat wood to prevent decay and insect infestation. Do not
use such lumber to construct planters or raised beds, since it is
likely to severely damage plants.
This link forgets to mention why you shouldn't use creosote, they
just tell readers not too... But they have some good
suggestions on other things you can use to make raised beds.
Quote:
Pressure Treated Wood in the Garden
1. Do not use wood treated with pentachlorophenol (Penta) or
creosote in edible gardens.
2. Never burn any kind of treated wood.
3. Do not install treated wood for raised beds or compost bins in
the vegetable garden. There are alternative materials that are
safer and more environmentally sound.
4. For vegetable beds, either don't frame the beds at all, or use
untreated lumber, concrete, or plastic framing kits made from
recycled plastic.
5. For compost bins, don't use treated wood. The best bet is to
avoid wood altogether. Other possibilities include concrete blocks,
wire mesh, or commercial plastic bins. Or, build your bin out of
discarded shipping pallets. Another option (less environmentally
friendly) is to use naturally pest resistant cedar or redwood.
6. If you have a deck or other structure made of treated wood,
consider applying a sealer to the wood to minimize hand contact
with the material.
7. If you think that your garden soil has elevated metals levels, be
sure to maintain soil pH above 6.0 by adding lime. (Be sure to
wear gloves and goggles when handling lime. -Ed.)
This link talks about the danger of creosote contaminating ground
water and the slight risk it poses to gardeners.
Quote:
Creosote... can contaminate soil and move into groundwater, and
persist for many years.
Of perhaps greater concern than contaminating your garden
is the health risk that creosote presents to you. The International
Agency for Research on Cancer and the Environmental Protection
Agency (EPA) have both found creosote to be a probable
carcinogen. Low-level, long-term exposure can also cause
reddened, blistered, or peeling skin, increased sensitivity to light,
and eye damage. Preparing and handling the ties during installation
and simply gardening around them could expose you to potential
health risks. You could be allowing creosote to enter your body by
getting it on your skin, ingesting contaminated food or soil, drinking
contaminated water, or breathing contaminated air.
In short, don't use the railroad ties. It's not worth the risk to you or
your garden. So what's your best and cheapest alternative? Cinder
blocks, or the more attractive concrete retaining wall blocks. These
blocks are inexpensive, durable, and widely available.
Manufacturers have branched out from the traditional (and
institutional) gray color and now offer blocks in a variety of colors
and textures, including faux rock.
I don't think you'll have any problems, I used a lot of new ties around the PA. house and stuff grew good right next to them, and these ties bled chemicals they were so new. I did make the mistake of handling them without a shirt in the hot sun and got pretty uncomfortable low-level burns for my trouble. _________________ It's the height of rudeness for the stretch polyester pants crowd to foist their tard version of Christ on talmudic scholars. But they don't get this, because they are, after all, extremely thick.----Threadbare
steam_cannon, I noticed your striking resemblance to Prince Charles! Are you certain there was no mix up at the hospital?! _________________ Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
Well, it seems that the Washington State University is a reliable source and they're telling us CCA treated wood and RR ties are not harmful to plants and people.
Creosote can volatilize into the air, especially during hot weather, and plant foliage in the vicinity of the ties may be damaged by the vapors. It can also leach into the soil near the ties, but it will not be absorbed by the roots and will therefore not get into the plants' tissues.
When using railroad ties for raised beds or similar areas, avoid putting plants too close to the wood. Keeping plants three of four inches away should prevent damage. Also, don't ever use creosote-treated wood in interior locations such as greenhouses, since the vapors will damage or kill plants in them.
This seems to be the only study mentioned. I looked and couldn't find any at all so I'll say thanks for your nice effort! Unless I see a study demonstrating harmful effects... I'll use due caution and simply avoid the edges near the wood... and use concrete blocks or something else next time or when we feel moved to do so. My wife and I have been wondering if we should tear them out and replace the borders and it appears there's no hurry. _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
don't know about the railway sleepers (however all petrochemical products are somewhat poisonous, remember the EXXON cleanup personal). I wouldn't recommend the pressure treated timber at least not for leaves and root crop. Here it's called CAA treated, one of the A's is arsenic.
I wouldn't recommend the pressure treated timber at least not for leaves and root crop. Here it's called CAA treated, one of the A's is arsenic.
Not sure where you live. CCA is the old green colored pressure treat and in the US, it's not available anymore. Everyone now uses ACQ (the orange colored wood) which contains copper and aluminum, but no arsenic. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
SPG, that's most likely the wood I used for two of the four sides of a bed. It has lots of little holes all over it, I suppose from the treatment process.
The WSU study pertained to the CCA wood only it appears.
Ok, copper and aluminum. Is it bonded to the wood cells making leaching (??) minimal? _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
SPG, that's most likely the wood I used for two of the four sides of a bed. It has lots of little holes all over it, I suppose from the treatment process.
Yeah the orange stuff with lots of holes is ACQ. I assume the holes allow the chemical to get in more easily.
Quote:
Ok, copper and aluminum. Is it bonded to the wood cells making leaching (??) minimal?
Umm...it's pressure treat. They put the wood in a big pressure vessel and force the treatment in under pressure. I'm sure some leaches back out. The questions are: How much copper and aluminum are already in your soil? How much does the leeching change that? And how worried are you about the aluminum and copper content of your soil? _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
SPG, that's most likely the wood I used for two of the four sides of a bed. It has lots of little holes all over it, I suppose from the treatment process.
Yeah the orange stuff with lots of holes is ACQ. I assume the holes allow the chemical to get in more easily.
Quote:
Ok, copper and aluminum. Is it bonded to the wood cells making leaching (??) minimal?
Umm...it's pressure treat. They put the wood in a big pressure vessel and force the treatment in under pressure. I'm sure some leaches back out. The questions are: How much copper and aluminum are already in your soil? How much does the leeching change that? And how worried are you about the aluminum and copper content of your soil?
Never gave it a second thought until today. There was an article in a local paper about organin gardening and the wood in the photo was obviously treated ACQ. Funny. How much is there and how much is added via these two 2 x 6's in my garden? I have a sneaking suspicion it isn't that much... but there's probably no easy way to find out either. So what to do? Leave it and line the inside with plastic? Then the stuff can leach underneath and migrate, maybe?
Yikes... one could drive themselves absolutely nuts worrying about things like this, couldn't they? _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Raised Vegetable Beds
eastbay wrote:
Leave it and line the inside with plastic? Then the stuff can leach underneath and migrate, maybe?
I think I'd be more worried about the phthalates from the plastic than the copper from the pressure treat personally. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
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