Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3129 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
steam_cannon wrote:
Hey, it's Cid_Yama's stalker troll! Thank goodness you came by to tell us what to think!
Well, it's such a terrible thing for anyone here have to actually defend their positions. I mean, that's no fun. After all, in the real world all you ever do is come across people who agree with eachother.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
The United States of America is the great nation that it is because of two documents, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
The Bush Administration is working outside of the Constitutionally mandated legislative process to abandon the Constitution and merge the United States of America with two other countries.
What will be left over, will be a corporate designed fascist superstate, Mexamerada. The United States of America and the protections of the Constitution will be gone.
Because the Bush Administration is attempting to do this in secret, outside the perview of Congress, and get it done before the American people can stop it, they are commiting an act of Sedition.
The Bush Administration are traitors to the United States of America, working to subvert it and bring about it's demise.
A true Patriot defends the Constitution and the United States of America against all enemies, foreign or domestic.
The hours late, and it's time to decide which side you're on. _________________ In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
mos6507 wrote:
steam_cannon wrote:
Hey, it's Cid_Yama's stalker troll! Thank goodness you came by to tell us what to think!
Well, it's such a terrible thing for anyone here have to actually defend their positions. I mean, that's no fun. After all, in the real world all you ever do is come across people who agree with eachother.
If I ever came across you following me around to disagree with me
"in the real world", you'd have a problem.
Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 3441 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
steam_cannon wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
steam_cannon wrote:
Hey, it's Cid_Yama's stalker troll! Thank goodness you came by to tell us what to think!
Well, it's such a terrible thing for anyone here have to actually defend their positions. I mean, that's no fun. After all, in the real world all you ever do is come across people who agree with eachother.
If I ever came across you following me around to disagree with me
"in the real world", you'd have a problem.
One of my co-workers does that, much to my disgust and my boss's amusement. He is a royal PITA but for the most part I just rub some salt back on him and hope it stings when I can no longer bite my tounge and just ignore his existence. _________________ Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little
as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.--Isaac Asimov
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
We the people of the United States were never asked if we wanted to be integrated with Mexico and Canada, Echard said. Even the Hudson Institute recently released a White Paper that freely admits that the U.S. Congress has been excluded from the plan and purposely kept in the dark. President Bush knows that SPP would never be successful via the legislative process because it is such an obvious violation of the U.S. Constitution.
The President certainly has some explaining to do. These closed-door negotiations have been going on for 7 years and the American people want answers, concluded Echard. The public is outraged as they become more aware of the true meaning of SPP. We cannot allow the President to move another step forward without fully and openly disclosing the details of these plans to Congress.
The chief executives of Wal-Mart, Chevron, and 28 other large corporations are in on the closed-door negotiations, while members of Congress, journalists, and ordinary citizens are excluded. And the secrecy is not just around the presidential summits, but also the meetings of about 20 SPP working groups that carry on negotiations over the course of the year.
What’s on the table? Not much is public, but we do know that the executive powers of the three countries are hammering out regulatory changes that they claim do not require legislative approval. And given who’s in the room, it’s a safe bet that these changes will favor narrow corporate interests over the public good.
The official corporate advisory body, called the North American Competitive Council (NACC), made 51 proposals to the SPP negotiators last year on issues as varied as taxation and patent rights. The NACC later boasted that “all three of our governments have committed themselves to taking action on many of our recommendations.”
In essence, the SPP represents the privatization of policymaking. And so it’s not surprising that on top of the outrageously anti-democratic process, there are also strong reasons to be concerned about the substance of SPP decisions. Here are just a few:
First, at a time when the Democratic presidential candidates have kicked up a long overdue debate over NAFTA, the SPP would actually expand this flawed policy. Even though the lifting of trade and investment barriers under the trade pact failed to create the promised good, stable jobs, the SPP is further chipping away at remaining economic regulations. For example, at the last SPP summit, the three leaders announced a weakening of NAFTA’s “rules of origin” to allow products with a lower level of national content to receive preferential tariff treatment. This will undermine domestic industries by making trade in products from third countries like China even more profitable.
Second, the SPP could exacerbate tensions over energy resources and deepen our dependence on fossil fuels. Under the guise of a “North American integrated energy market,” there is evidence that the U.S. government and corporations are aiming to gain greater control over its neighbors’ resources. One SPP agreement, for example, reflects the corporate advisors’ recommendations to promote energy privatization in Mexico – this in spite of a massive citizens’ movement in that country, which has fought long and hard to prevent their nation’s oil industry from being handed over to global corporations. In Canada, progressive activists are up in arms over an SPP report that envisioned a fivefold increase in environmentally destructive oil production from tar sands, with most of the increase to be exported to the United States.
Third, the SPP talks are aimed at expanding the militarized U.S. security perimeter to all of North America, with disturbing implications for civil liberties. The three countries have vowed to join forces against not only external but also “internal” threats, and Mexico and Canada have already agreed to share vast amounts of information with the U.S. government, including the fingerprints of refugees and asylum seekers. The Bush administration is also offering Mexico a multi-billion-dollar military aid package under the Merida Initiative (also known as Plan Mexico). While the new equipment is supposedly to combat drug cartels, many organizations have expressed concerns that it may also end up being used against political dissidents.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3129 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
steam_cannon wrote:
If I ever came across you following me around to disagree with me
"in the real world", you'd have a problem.
If you are so sensitive to disagreement maybe you should lock yourself away, sit in front of the mirror and recite your opinions to yourself rather than posting on an open messageboard.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
For an intensifying Civil War there seems to be an absence of news. I want pictures of dead bodies, militias on the march, women weeping over their dead etc etc...
Oh yeah, thats me thinking words mean something mildly objective again.
The civil unrest is coming. Those pictures will be on this site soon enough but as I tell my kids when we are in the middle of Iowa, "No we are not there yet. Stop hitting your brother!" _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1542 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
"The hours late, and it's time to decide which side you're on."
I want to live in Americanaxico. cha cha cha! _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
The Triqui indigenous community of San Juan Copala, which declared autonomy on January 21, 2007, has suffered the bitter loss of two young women. Felicitas Martinez, age 20, and Teresa Bautista, age 24, were traveling in a rural part of Oaxaca state on route to the statewide meeting “For the Defense of the Rights of the Peoples of Oaxaca,” when gunmen opened fire on their vehicle late Monday. The gunfire killed the two women, and wounded three others in the vehicle, a man and wife and their three-year-old child, the Oaxaca attorney general’s office said in a statement.
The office said the assailants used high-powered assault rifles in what it described as an ambush. No arrests have been made. And to make a point: in Oaxaca, daily assassinations occur of organized crime members, narco-traffickers, wealthy people, business people, drug dealers, indigenous people, of police and military officials, plus local and international reporters. Arrests are never made. Crimes are never solved. The daily newspaper prints photos of corpses, newly discovered or recently excavated, and that’s that.
Despite repeated condemnations by human rights groups within the state, nationally and internationally, the government response is rhetorical. Instead, the state of Oaxaca is highly militarized. While I sit at my computer in the morning I hear the helicopters buzzing overhead, with armed troopers hanging out the doors – a bit of theater which serves only to intimidate.
The two assassinated women worked for a community radio station called “The Voice that Breaks the Silence” in San Juan Copala where activists in January of 2007 declared San Juan Copala an autonomous municipality in a challenge to state officials. This declaration included the local Triqui movement united for struggle, MULT, which had been corrupted by the Revolutionary Institutional Party (PRI, in its Spanish initials). The new Triqui municipality, through its organization called MULTI (the Independent United Triqui Movement for Struggle), called for union of all Triquis and implicitly rejected the PRI and government paramilitary, thus breaking their hegemonic control in the region.
On April 9 and 10, 2008, that indigenous statewide meeting took place in the Hotel Magisterio (the Teachers Union Hotel, site of many past meetings for the social movement in Oaxaca) “to strengthen our struggles and defend in an effective manner our rights, we convoke this state Meeting.” (website OaxacaLibre. com). The worktables discussed the following themes:
1. Community and alternative communication; community radio, video, press and internet.
2. Community defense of natural resources: land, water, biodiversity, air, woods, electricity and oil.
3. Repression of human and constitutional rights, freedom for political prisoners; cancellation of arrest orders and presentation alive of the disappeared.
4. Organization and social movement in Oaxaca, and construction of an alternative organization by the people and for the people.
The speakers denounced the climate of repression, the militarization and constant violence in the state in violation of human rights. The community authorities of Yosotatu, a small Mixteca town, made public the campaign of repression against them, which has put several of their townspeople in jail and also caused the deaths of several land owners. The most recent is the assassination of Placido Lopez Castro, whose killers have not been arrested. (What a surprise.)
The representatives of the community of Xanica denounced the imprisonment of three of their companions and the privatization of the River Copalita. The goal of the privatization is to provide water for the mega-tourist project, Bahias de Huatulco on the Pacific coast of Oaxaca. Further, several representatives of communities in the Isthmus de Tehuantepec denounced the taking of lands by the Spanish businesses constructing the wind electricity generators. The community spokespersons said that threats and deceit has been used and now more than 3,000 hectares have been occupied. Recently, 73 campesinos from the Ejido La Venta were accused by the Federal Electric Commission of the crime of defending their lands for common use.
On the national level the Section 22 march protested “restructuring reforms” (the privatization of PEMEX, the Mexican national oil company), the Treaty for Free Commerce (TLC, or NAFTA), militarization, the doubled cost of fertilizers, and demanded the repeal of the law of ISSSTE which privatizes some social security benefits. A national work stoppage is planned.
According to APPO spokesperson Cesar Mateos Benitez, the APPO condemns the government for trying to link the APPO and the Committee of Women of Oaxaca (COMO, a group of women who took over the state television channel in 2006) with the Popular Revolutionary Army (EPR), which constituted “the media assault of the week” in the mainstream Oaxaca press. Along with organized crime, the PRI wing uses false accusations to justify the militarization of the state, and to send in intelligence or spy agencies. In other words, the propaganda justifies whatever repression the government seeks, by linking the social movement to armed revolutionaries.
To my eye, it looks very much like that with the failure of Oaxaca state as a governable unit, the mini civil war that now prevails resembles a turf-battle of human wolves, to control territory and money. This means not only incoming federal monies and drug money, but even more, new wealth to be extracted from geographical territory rich in natural resources. Indigenous people remain, to the extent they have not been driven to emigrate, as an obstacle to the exploitation of minerals, wind, water, woods, petroleum, shoddy road and school construction, and glittering beach-front resorts, in a grand sell-off to international companies.
link _________________ In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
The Zapatistas, the indigenous peoples of Oaxaca, have been resisting attempts by the Mexican government to force them off their lands so that multinational corporations can exploit their resources. They recently issued a new statement, the ViCam Declaration, that they are prepared to die rather than be forced off their lands or have their sustainable way of life destroyed. Many of their villages have been surrounded by the Mexican army for years, but despite widespread arrests and assassinations, the people are still resisting. As you recall, when the CIA killed Che Guevara, they first flew in high-tech equipment, planeloads of arms, tracked his group with heat-sensing detectors on planes, and flew in 600 U.S. Marines in case they were needed as back-up. Without this sort of technological and numerical superiority, the cowards who hire themselves out as corporate mercenaries are usually afraid to attack. The multi-billion-dollar contract with Blackwater would give the Mexican government precisely this kind of technological and numerical superiority over the indigenous peoples of Oaxaca.
As part of the protest against the new camp in Potrero, residents had managed to get enough signatures to have a recall election against their planning board, which had approved the project against the will of the majority of residents. To make it easier to rig the election, San Diego's new Registrar of Voters, Deborah Seilor, a former Diebold spokesperson, has decreed that it will be a mail-in election. That way nobody can know for sure how many ballots were received or watch them being counted, as they will not be counted all at once. But that may not be necessary, as there are not likely to be many residents left in Potrero after the fires burn out, and those remaining will be busy attempting to repair their homes.
Fires broke out in other areas, possibly to distract attention from the primary target, and there has been much collateral damage. All the fires are likely to be blamed on "illegal aliens," and several mainstream media new stories appear to be laying the groundwork for that spin. No attention whatsoever is likely to be directed towards who stands to benefit to the tune of billions of dollars from these fires.
link _________________ In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
Two dead reporters? Thats it?
A brief read of Wikipedia suggests that this is union unrest (no good teacher's union) that spread. This is not a civil war.
Bloody Williamson was not a civil war, when strikes have gotten bloody here in the US, that was not civil war, when muslim youth in France burned cars that was not civil war. This is social unrest.
Civil War:
Civil Unrest:
Civil War:
Civil Unrest:
Civil war:
Civil unrest:
Sometimes people die during civil unrest. This does not make it a war. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Sep 11, 2007 Posts: 316 Location: In freefall speed right down to the claws of the devil
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
C_Y wrote:
Quote:
The United States of America is the great nation that it is because of two documents, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
I just wonder if I could get a little pactical here.
Since the concept of "nation" IS a political one, those two true facts/events you mention, are the political basements that help support that political NEW notion of your country. That they fought and earned the title of being a free nation ,independant from its conquers from there on, within the political framing that Constitution is supposed to give to each and everyone of its inhabitants.
In order to be recognised those entire concepts of independance, nation, geographic distribution and everything else involved, an international political/economical and even religious order needs to have received an application, studied it over and approve those changes that society went into, by the developments earlier mentioned.
Same applies to each country. Since we (venezuelans) were an spanierd colony, our "Liberator" Simon Bolivar seek for the military "cooperation" from both the brits and the north americans societies. And after winning the "final" battle of Carabobo, the spanish army had to flee and leave us "alone" or the other parties could get involved, if that new condition was not granted entirely by the losers.
I think Kosovo, Santa Cruz ( Bolivia) are pretty good examples of that. However, if we are to see WHO and WHAT interests stand behind them, I can certainly point you to Panama and its self "struggle" to be politically chunked off Colombia. And the event that granted its international recognition as a brand new republic.
Well people, I think we were (and still ARE) in the prescence of an world order. And with its economic, social and religious internationalInstitutions.
I am convinced that to think that a political treaty, such any constitution really is, could be over that "order´s" designs/decisions, is dangerously naive ....... but worthy of good discussions. Not that I, personally, expect one but who knows???
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1201 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Civil War in Mexico Intensifies
Sorry Cur, wasn't replying to your post.
Your misunderstanding is understandable. When there is great disparity in the military strength of opposing sides, civil wars are of necessity, guerrilla wars. No great land battles, no large scale death and destruction. what you have are ambushes and destruction of infrastructure by the armed combatants and possibly riots and violent protests by the civilian population.
Much of the fighting is occurring in remote areas in southern Mexico, while western media is focused exclusively along the border with the US.
These areas are difficult to access by journalists without the the approval of the Mexican Government and journalists are routinely being targeted and killed there.
The two women killed above is a good example of that.
Journalists continue to be killed covering Civil War in Mexico
Oct. 27, 2007 marked the first anniversary of the shooting of New York Indymedia photojournalist Brad Will by police in Oaxaca, Mexico.
Will was gunned down just outside Oaxaca City while filming a pitched battle between supporters of Governor Ulises Ruiz Ortiz and members of the Oaxaca Peoples Popular Assembly (APPO).
Will was one of 20 journalists working in Mexico to have disappeared or been killed since 2000(as of Oct 10, 2007).
link _________________ In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- George Orwell
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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