Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
The issue of truth does not lie with what I've said but with what God has said. If it was simply what I said, then I would agree with you, brush it aside.
However, what I'm sharing with you comes from the Bible. Here's what is said about sin.
Alex, this is the problem. You have read something in a book, and you have accepted the idea that this book was written by people who were being acted upon by a supernatural force to write down certain so-called divinely inspired ideas.
But the fact that you have accepted this as truth, based solely upon your own faith, does not mean that it's not still coming from you, AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED.
In other words, you are saying that because it's in the Bible God said it. What I'm saying is that the fact that it's in the Bible tells me nothing other than it's in the Bible. It doesn't tell me anything about who wrote it, or what supernatural influence they may or may not have been under when they wrote it. You are asking me to accept a leap of faith as fact just because YOU have chosen to take the leap of faith necessary to believe it.
Do you see how that breaks down if I choose not to have faith in the same things as you do?
Do you see how your assertions of fact are actually assertions of faith?
The best you can say is "if you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, then..."
But you can't say "because the Bible says it, it is factually correct..."
When you begin the discussion from the perspective of the Bible being infallible, all you are doing is inviting the questions:
"How did the Bible come to be infallible?"
"Who decided that?"
"How do we know they were infallible themselves?"
I think in logic they say you are assuming the thing you are seeking to prove. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Here's a question.
What has greater value - something eternal or something finite?
Alex
It depends on what it is.
If I had to choose between eternal ugly and finite ugly, I would say the finite ugly has more value because it exposes you to something unpleasant for a shorter period.
But really, it is impossible to put value that is based upon economics from a finite world to something infinite.
And the reality is that what you are positing as infinite is only infinite because you believe that it's infinite. It's not as if the infinite nature of what you are describing can be objectively determined.
The way you should tee it up is this:
What has more value, something that is finite and can be objectively verified or something that is infinite but unverifiable, though I happen to believe it is true? _________________
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Hi Aaron,
Here's a question.
What has greater value - something eternal or something finite?
Alex
Something meaningful has the most value... for a moment or an eternity.
Meaningless eternity is of no value.
A meaningful moment is eternal. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
Quote:
The Book of Revelation says God's judgment is inevitable because of humanities rebellion against God out of which all the other evils sprout like grass in the springtime.
"You talk prettier than a five dollar whore."
Blazing Saddles
Exactly what I said in my own course way.
God's gonna kick ass & take names eventually.
Then 1,000 years of partying etc...
So conserve or don't. Trash the environment all you like... won't matter after G-dog comes to town.
Take no thought for your life... he's got your back.
No amount of... "Well... he didn't mean it like that", is likely to be convincing.
If you want to use that logic to justify living any old way you please, or if someone else does, I guess that is a choice. And some argue that way and believe it. Can we get honest and say that the Bible nowhere supports that argument, that it is ok to sin because well it all gets burnt down anyways? It will make a big difference personally to anyone who does not believe the gospel. The 1000 years of partying is a description that thoroughly cheepens the image in my mind. Thanks for the visuals. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4261 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
If you want to use that logic to justify living any old way you please, or if someone else does, I guess that is a choice. And some argue that way and believe it.
But Gandalf, don't you see that that is precisely what you are doing? You are using the logic you find within the four corners of the Bible and your faith to justify the way you live. The way you live is, indeed, "any old way you please" because it pleases you to live the way you do.
Do you see that?
YOU are arguing that way and BELIEVING it.
And note that people who live according to different principles, values or truths are not necessarily living "any old way they please". They are often living according to beliefs just as firmly held as your own.
Do you see how dismissive you are being toward those who don't agree with you? _________________
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
(...)
I just have an honest question for those of you following this thread.
Is there anyone who can say with sincerity that they are without sin? In other words, you have not transgressed the Law of Moses, the Ten Commandments?
Alex
I don't follow any law, I don't serve any being, divine or not. My ethics are based on cessation of suffering for all aware beings (life in general). I've known some hateful christians, their minds filled with hate towards non-christians (in "real life"). And I'm wary of how Christianity makes hate and suffering born from ignorance.
If you read a bit, Abraham's or Hinduism's God, according to Buddhism, is just an ignorant deva that thinks he/she created everything but isn't even aware of higher planes of existance (the rest of rupa-dhatu and arupa-dhatu). By knowing this God's followers and the base of their dogma, I agree. In a way, it's like a demon controlling fearful children of samsara. It was weird seeing someone talking about "truth" with a demon-like "I will shove my dogma through your throat" intentionality... having the Third Eye to see other's mind in a clearer way isn't that fun... some humans are covered in so much hate, anger, ignorance and so on.
But for what it's worth, as far as I started counting, I've 1+ years of not lying at all and I don't kill animals that are not for eating (I don't use leather). _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12469 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
But for what it's worth, as far as I started counting, I've 1+ years of not lying at all and I don't kill animals that are not for eating (I don't use leather).
Hey, that's neat! I haven't committed adultery! Yay me! _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
I was very self-righteous until I realized how sinful my heart really was before God.
Here are a couple verses to consider.
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." [Matthew 5:27-28]
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." [1 John 3:15]
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
I think the key point is lust (craving sex, being a slave to sexual and sensual pleasure) more than adultery. I do not care a bit if I enjoy seeing girls bodies, I don't care if they have boyfriends or husbands... of course, I let this enjoyment go the moment it ends (I stop seeing the girl). IMO, it's a healthy balance. _________________ anagami.net
Last edited by anagami on Fri May 02, 2008 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1165 Location: Central NC
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
zensui wrote:
But for what it's worth, as far as I started counting, I've 1+ years of not lying at all and I don't kill animals that are not for eating (I don't use leather).
Hey, that's neat! I haven't committed adultery! Yay me!
How about leather?
I'm just funnin. Please don't feel a reply is needed or warranted!
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
If you want to use that logic to justify living any old way you please, or if someone else does, I guess that is a choice. And some argue that way and believe it.
But Gandalf, don't you see that that is precisely what you are doing? You are using the logic you find within the four corners of the Bible and your faith to justify the way you live. The way you live is, indeed, "any old way you please" because it pleases you to live the way you do.
Do you see that?
YOU are arguing that way and BELIEVING it.
And note that people who live according to different principles, values or truths are not necessarily living "any old way they please". They are often living according to beliefs just as firmly held as your own.
Do you see how dismissive you are being toward those who don't agree with you?
Wow!
Nice work. You sound like my mother. I view YOUR argument to be
a) not the same as Aaron's [who is btw a full grown man who has been around a little bit. I'm sure he has done his share of debating and thereby learned to have a thick skin.]
and
b) to be rather 'enmeshed' if you understand the term.
I don't know any other word to finish my response with based on what you have said earlier than, 'Wow!' Truth is not negotiable, but to suddenly go Dr. Jekyll here and start suggesting that I am somehow being selfish by preaching the Bible, that to mention God's word is an act of pure self interest is really off in left field. What ever medication you are taking it needs to be adjusted because that was not a cogent turn to take.
I'm taking time to answer because of the sickly mushy tone in your post, I simply had to say something about it. I can only hope that you find the courage to break free from any need to be validated by others. I'm having flashbacks of every dysfunctional 40 something mom I have ever known, who sincerely thinks the next relationship is the right one, but they always end the same way.
The world has nothing that can satisfy you or save you. May the Lord see and help you understand that. Investments made in sin are really never paid back, it is a well with no bottom that never gives water. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 9:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
I think the key point is lust (craving sex, being a slave to sexual and sensual pleasure) more than adultery. I do not care a bit if I enjoying seeing girls bodies, I don't care if they have boyfriends or husbands... of course, I let this enjoyment go the moment it ends. IMO, it's a healthy balance.
Well I'm calling it a night but in light of our discussion about sin, I'll leave you with these four verses to consider.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"
(1 Corinthians 6:9a)
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10)
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)
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