Don’t worry, just a little bump - $70 is just around the corner. Short traders just keep making those margin calls, mortgage the house if you have to. Fortunes await you! PO is for pansies and doomers. At $70 short some more ..... it is going back to $22 .... the world is awash with oil ........ reality has nothing to do with it, its all in those charts!!!!!!!!!!
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
the Holy Spirit revealed to you that He was who He claimed to be.
Can you explain what that feels like? Is there a voice in your head talking to you? Or is it a "feeling" or what is it?
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
There is nothing vague there, salvation creates a personal relationship with a living God, Jesus.
Can you explain what that personal relationship is like? Do you hear Jesus, do you literally see him?
Gandalf's reasoning is tortured and tiring. It would be so much easier if he would just say these are matters of faith, and then describe the FACTS upon which he built his faith.
It's so much easier that way.
For example:
It's a fact that we have the Bible as a set of guiding principles for life. It's not the only set out there, but it is one set that many people choose to follow, in whole or in part.
If a person studies the Bible and finds that incorporating its ideas into his/her life enhances his/her level of understanding and sense of peace, then it is a fact that the application of the biblical principles in that person's life did, indeed, produce a higher level of spiritual understanding and peace.
If a person prays for understanding and as a result finds that their experience of reality is clearer and easier to understand, then it is a fact that prayer works for them.
If a community turns to the Bible and God and finds that crime, divorce, and other problems dramatically improve as a result, then it is a fact that biblical principles provided a benefit on both a personal and societal level.
These are all facts that are easy enough to establish. Once established, then one can begin discussing whether it is appropriate to extrapolate certain matters of faith from these facts.
But you have to show that something works in practice before you can hope to convince someone that it works in matters of faith.
For example, if I say "Christianity will provide you comfort when you eventually have to face death", it would be reasonable for you to say "okay then, can you show me how it is providing you comfort in smaller matters?" I would need to be able to show you that.
But ultimately, I think that any faith or belief system needs to provide you with a sense of wholeness in your world TODAY. If all it does is provide you with a deferred promise of understanding, peace, or eternal life at some point in the future, I'm not sure how useful that is.
The future, like the past, is just an abstraction. Thus, if the only sense of wholeness I have is based upon the expectation of a future event, in a sense I am living in a world of pure fantasy. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11881 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Absolutely, I'd believe in Jesus if I believed in Jesus! I used to believe in Jesus (but never saw him or heard a voice), but for the past 25 years or so I haven't found him especially believable.
Like I say, I'm fine with the idea if Jesus wants to be my Saviour that would be great. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11881 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Absolutely, I'd believe in Jesus if I believed in Jesus! I used to believe in Jesus (but never saw him or heard a voice), but for the past 25 years or so I haven't found him especially believable.
Like I say, I'm fine with the idea if Jesus wants to be my Saviour that would be great.
But you know Ludi, I think the notion of "believing in Jesus" can be just a matter of studying his teachings as they are recorded and deciding whether or not that reflects the truth when you live according to those principles.
The idea that you have to have supernatural experiences to fully comprehend something is, to me, off the mark. Sadly, I think it encourages a lot of silly stuff, especially among Catholics and their weeping Mary statues, exorcisms and other mystical practices.
Everyone wants certainty, they want proof, they want to nail it down to a certainty.
But that's not how the world works, as much as we may want it to.
Even Jesus's disciples were like that. They wanted to know when the kingdom on earth was going to start, when would they learn all of the truths, etc. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
Anyone with any sense ought to be able to instantly see that any faith that claims to represent the one and only TRUE way is going to quickly encounter friction with other belief systems.
And SURPRISE, that's exactly what has happened for all of recorded history.
Religion is probably really more like a form of tribalism in most cases, and tribalism, at its core, is about US and THEM. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11881 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
But you know Ludi, I think the notion of "believing in Jesus" can be just a matter of studying his teachings as they are recorded and deciding whether or not that reflects the truth when you live according to those principles.
Which principles do you mean? Do you mean being nice to people? Or do you mean selling your belongings, giving the money to the poor, and going to preach the gospel?
Jesus told his followers to "be perfect" (sermon on the mount) and he told them exactly and precisely how to be perfect (the rich young man). _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
Anyone with any sense ought to be able to instantly see that any faith that claims to represent the one and only TRUE way is going to quickly encounter friction with other belief systems.
And SURPRISE, that's exactly what has happened for all of recorded history.
Religion is probably really more like a form of tribalism in most cases, and tribalism, at its core, is about US and THEM. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
But you know Ludi, I think the notion of "believing in Jesus" can be just a matter of studying his teachings as they are recorded and deciding whether or not that reflects the truth when you live according to those principles.
Which principles do you mean? Do you mean being nice to people? Or do you mean selling your belongings, giving the money to the poor, and going to preach the gospel?
Jesus told his followers to "be perfect" (sermon on the mount) and he told them exactly and precisely how to be perfect (the rich young man).
I think that the following principles on which Jesus focused are very sound:
1. Humility in all things
2. Turning away from worldly possessions
3. Reducing desire
4. Understanding that selfishness, anger, jealousy, etc. are really dead ends
5. Skepticism regarding institutions and bureaucracy
6. Courage in facing what you regard as evil
7. Living in the present and not being preoccupied with worry
8. Demonstrating your beliefs in word and deed
I don't think it's a matter of saying "because you didn't give away all your stuff and take up a cross you aren't a good Christian." I think it's more a matter of realizing that no matter what you accumulate, the possessions will not bring you happiness, peace or understanding. For me, when I stopped caring that much about getting more stuff, I did find that I had a much clearer sense of understanding about what matters in this world.
There are many times that I would love to give away all of my stuff. It's just a drain on my time and energy trying to pay for it, keep up with it, maintain it, protect it, and keep it all dry, clean and organized. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11881 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Yep, those all look good.
Why don't you give your possessions away? Just curious.... _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Yep, those all look good.
Why don't you give your possessions away? Just curious....
Well, I have probably have two categories of possessions:
1. Stuff that I have for personal use. I think of things like clothes and similar items as tools that I use in the business of living. Without tools, you can't carry on the business of living. I think it would be silly to suggest to someone that they give away things that they are going to have to turn right around and beg others to provide them with.
2. Stuff that is in my house but that is not really "mine." Things like toys, furnishings, etc. Things I would not be comfortable unilaterally giving away.
I don't know, I just try to keep the new additions to the "stuff" pile under control. That's a victory in itself. _________________
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11881 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
I think it would be silly to suggest to someone that they give away things that they are going to have to turn right around and beg others to provide them with.
And yet that's just what Jesus told his followers to do, and not to worry about where their means of living would come from (consider the lily). _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Hi BigTex,
Jesus certainly had a lot of teachings but what do you think was the main purpose of His coming?
Alex
I think the main purpose of his coming was to share his message.
Note that the Gospels are full of people who heard his teachings and followed them and there are no footnotes indicating that their ultimate fate was not determined until after Jesus was crucified and they had to decide whether they believed that he actually arose from the dead.
But I'm not saying that my opinion regarding the purpose of Jesus and his message reflects any kind of ultimate truth. That's just where I am at in my spiritual journey as of this evening.
I understand that you may answer the question you posed in a different way, and please feel free to do so. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4054 Location: Gathering
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
BigTex wrote:
I think it would be silly to suggest to someone that they give away things that they are going to have to turn right around and beg others to provide them with.
And yet that's just what Jesus told his followers to do, and not to worry about where their means of living would come from (consider the lily).
Well, yes, but the lily needs water, soil, sunlight, etc. It's not as if the lily lives off of good vibrations.
We too have needs.
I don't get too bogged down in that kind of thing. I simply take the point that if you are consumed in a quest for stuff, it is likely going to be hard to reach higher levels of peace and understanding and I move on.
The point is to turn away from worldliness, I think, and that point strikes me as a sound one. _________________
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
