Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Jesus told his followers to "be perfect" (sermon on the mount) and he told them exactly and precisely how to be perfect (the rich young man).
Hi Ludi,
Yes Jesus did say we should be perfect but He wasn't telling us to be perfect in order to be saved because we'd all fall short.
For example, here's the encounter between Jesus and the rich young man.
"And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?...Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich." (Luke 18:18-23)
Notice what Jesus confronted him with - the Ten Commandments. The rich ruler was claiming to have kept the commandments Jesus listed but look at what Jesus left out - the commandment about idolatry. Jesus knew what this man's sin was - his wealth was his idol and when asked to repent and part with it, the young ruler would not. His self-righteousness was shown to be false.
So, the message Jesus Christ brought was not one of self-improvement or commanding us to try to obtain perfection in order to be saved. This is the very thing the Pharisees were claiming and Jesus constantly rebuked them for it. Nobody is without sin and all are in need of a salvation through Christ's shed blood on the cross of Calvary.
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" (John 11:25)
Once we're saved, then we follow Christ and do His will but its out of thankfulness for receiving salvation not to earn it.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12472 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Matthew 19:21King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
more translations _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1164 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
POAlex & Gandalf the White, Ludi has entertained your belief system patiently. She deserves an answer to this. I will hold you to answer her questions please. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Yes Ludi,
I do give of my posessions but that's between myself and the Lord. No one should boast of what they do.
And yes, as I said above, Jesus did say we should be perfect. But you're confusing a saved person who hungers and thirsts after righteousness with someone trying to earn their salvation by being perfect. There is a very, very big difference. One is done out of thankfulness for the salvation they've received in Christ and God's glory. While the other is trying to merit their salvation by good works.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ibon wrote:
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
POAlex & Gandalf the White, Ludi has entertained your belief system patiently. She deserves an answer to this. I will hold you to answer her questions please.
Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, there is no other way. There are all kinds of experiences out there but the only way to be saved is through the person of Jesus Christ and His shed blood.
The Bible says,
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
You have to remember, the difference between believing in just anything and Jesus Christ, is that not only is He alive but He is God Almighty and our living Saviour for whom we can call upon to save us.
When we are saved, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and born again.
Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 1164 Location: Seattle, Wa.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
POAlex & Gandalf the White, Ludi has entertained your belief system patiently. She deserves an answer to this. I will hold you to answer her questions please.
Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, there is no other way. There are all kinds of experiences out there but the only way to be saved is through the person of Jesus Christ and His shed blood.
The Bible says,
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
You have to remember, the difference between believing in just anything and Jesus Christ, is that not only is He alive but He is God Almighty and our living Saviour for whom we can call upon to save us.
When we are saved, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and born again.
Alex
POAlex. Sounds like heroin. _________________ Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
(...)
For example, if I say "Christianity will provide you comfort when you eventually have to face death", it would be reasonable for you to say "okay then, can you show me how it is providing you comfort in smaller matters?" I would need to be able to show you that.
But ultimately, I think that any faith or belief system needs to provide you with a sense of wholeness in your world TODAY. If all it does is provide you with a deferred promise of understanding, peace, or eternal life at some point in the future, I'm not sure how useful that is.
The future, like the past, is just an abstraction. Thus, if the only sense of wholeness I have is based upon the expectation of a future event, in a sense I am living in a world of pure fantasy.
The experience of meditation is one based on the now. Nirvana is an experience that happens in life, not after death. I've had glimpses of Nirvana through the practice of meditation, following an ethical conduct and understanding wisdom of spirituality, mind, life, reality and so on (the Noble Path). This has made me more happy than I ever thought possible NOW, it's a continous, whole experience of bliss, happyness, equanimity, serenity, compassion, love and so on. This life experience feeds on the practice of meditation. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
POAlex wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Ludi wrote:
What if a person had an experience identical to the "born again" experience but it was not with Jesus, but with some other deity or entity? Is the born again experience which "proves" the reality of Jesus false when it "proves" the reality of another deity? Other faiths also contain these kinds of intense emotional experiences which sweep the believers away.
POAlex & Gandalf the White, Ludi has entertained your belief system patiently. She deserves an answer to this. I will hold you to answer her questions please.
Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, there is no other way. There are all kinds of experiences out there but the only way to be saved is through the person of Jesus Christ and His shed blood.
The Bible says,
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
You have to remember, the difference between believing in just anything and Jesus Christ, is that not only is He alive but He is God Almighty and our living Saviour for whom we can call upon to save us.
When we are saved, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and born again.
Alex
Jesus Christ is just 2 words. Contemporary Christians use this words as if they were magical. Do you don't see the inherent inferior path you have chosen? It's all magic, chant some spells to be saved from fear of eternal pain, instead of making humans and life evolve to a more harmonious state. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Ludi wrote:
Matthew 19:21King James Bible
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
What you need are not more translations but a Greek Lexicon and a good ancient Greek dictionary.
perfect (NT) the greek word teleios meaning complete, mature, of full age, perfect
It does not mean without flaw. Christ was saying if you want to be completed, mature, then do this. Our heavenly Father is a complete person.
the idea comes from the fact that children are still growing and are not in completel possession or control of their faculties.
Consider this verse which uses the same Greek word for perfect.
And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. James 1:4
Do you see the arrow of endurance pointing forward through time to that perfect result?
Paul also said,
'Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay holg of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ.' Philippians 3:12
Past tense of the same word. Again the translation into the word 'perfect' as most English speakers would understand it is not really that good.
The same is true for the word love, which is the one english word used in the English Bible for at least four different Greek words describing the notions of love, agape, phileo, sturge, eros
Why did the Strong's Concordance sell so many millions of copies, because the english translation of the Bible, even the best ones, still leave some aspects of the original languages to be desired.
The obvious next question is....
I have heard people who work on translation say that some languages they have encountered are so rudimentary that they do not even have words for concepts like grace.
It is the Holy Spirit who has to fill in the gaps, and I would say that He is trying to.
Christians do stumble, and that is they do sin, but they do not practice sin. John in his first letter makes this clear, again one has to look at the Greek to understand when John says,
'No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.'
The last thing anyone who actually knows Jesus wants to do is to sin in anyway, but James tells us
'For we all stumble in many ways.' James 3:2
But John says that in Christ there is a way that Christians can deal with sin.
'My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have and Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation (payment) for our sins.' 1 John 2:1,2
Here was John's prescription when someone who knows the Lord finds themselves to have fallen short.
'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' 1 John 1:9
These verse are among many that form the doctrine which says that repentance is a part of the entire Christian life. The Christian life begins when we accept Christ and turn from sin, and it continues unabated when we practice confession of sin, not with the intent of practicing it, but of growing up into perfection (maturity.)
Here is a verse that uses Biblical numerology, but it says the same thing.
'For a just man falls seven times and rises again.' Proverbs 24:16
If you truly know the Lord, that is you are compelled to believe the Bible, to trust in Jesus and to seek Him, you keep praying.
I can't answer why God allows there to be refining process in our lives, why not just get rid of the sin nature entirely? But I can tell you that if you refuse to let go of your faith, the perfection of what is needed for you to overcome in whatever caused you to question God will eventually get taken care of. I have known many Christians that were used by God but the key stumbling blocks in their lives seemed to return again and again until they finally ceased being willful, or learned what the issues were.
Some people harbor unforgiveness toward those who have wronged them and if you do that you might as well forget about fellowship with God.
Now forgiveness does not mean letting someone hurt you over and over again. The Lord will not allow you to be tested beyond what you are able. But forgiveness means you move into a realm of truly hoping the best for them, in God's grace, it means you would wish they were truly saved and resident in heaven. That also does not mean that they somehow escape the consequences of their actions on earth. Forgiveness is a sign that you have found peace in God. 'Vengeance is mine' says the Lord, 'I will repay.' And He will. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4263 Location: Graceland
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
Jesus Christ is just 2 words. Contemporary Christians use this words as if they were magical. Do you don't see the inherent inferior path you have chosen? It's all magic, chant some spells to be saved from fear of eternal pain, instead of making humans and life evolve to a more harmonious state.
When you said "inferior" you stepped off of your own path.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
zensui wrote:
BigTex wrote:
(...)
For example, if I say "Christianity will provide you comfort when you eventually have to face death", it would be reasonable for you to say "okay then, can you show me how it is providing you comfort in smaller matters?" I would need to be able to show you that.
But ultimately, I think that any faith or belief system needs to provide you with a sense of wholeness in your world TODAY. If all it does is provide you with a deferred promise of understanding, peace, or eternal life at some point in the future, I'm not sure how useful that is.
The future, like the past, is just an abstraction. Thus, if the only sense of wholeness I have is based upon the expectation of a future event, in a sense I am living in a world of pure fantasy.
The experience of meditation is one based on the now. Nirvana is an experience that happens in life, not after death. I've had glimpses of Nirvana through the practice of meditation, following an ethical conduct and understanding wisdom of spirituality, mind, life, reality and so on (the Noble Path). This has made me more happy than I ever thought possible NOW, it's a continous, whole experience of bliss, happyness, equanimity, serenity, compassion, love and so on. This life experience feeds on the practice of meditation.
Of course it does, when you learn how to control your body and brina you can stimulate endorphin releases. That is not salvation, but it feels really good. I know many Christians who feel largely the same way after prayer. Sometimes you feel it sometimes you don't. However, there are differences between the kind of experience you are talking about and being born again.
The major difference is that you are claiming the ability to tap into (by your own efforts) some kind of reformed or disciplined state of mind. Christians find their peace because of the burden of sin being lifted by a supernatural action of God Himself. We each cannot help but become advocates for the same experience as Paul said,
'Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'
2 Corinthians 5:20,21
'For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son' Colossians 1:13
We did not do and cannot do anything to find God, He finds us through odd things like web forums and encouters in the Mall and radios that get stuck on the wrong station and the jawbones of asses.
Look,
'For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would even dare to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled we shall be saved by His life.'
Romans 5:6-10
The fruit of the new life is greater than a glimpse of perfect harmony, it is a tree of life springing up unto eternal life, characterized by these fruit
'But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.'
Galatians 5:22
How did the seed of this tree get planted?
Therefore having been justified (declared not guilty of sin against God) by faith (believing the gospel and trusting in Jesus), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom also we have obtained our introduction by fiath into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in the hope (confidence) of the glory of God.
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope (confidence);
and that type of confidence does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Romans 5:1-5
Thank You Lord. Your salvation is perfect. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Jun 05, 2006 Posts: 218 Location: Over the tracks, left under the overpass, right, third boxcar on the left, ask for Jack
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Ooops, the word is a greek word elpis, and it means confidence, not the wishy washy maybe it will happen that is implied by the English common useage of the word hope. The translation is lacking.
Confidence is the feeling for the measure of success placed on the outcome of a hope. It is also commonly used by pollsters and gamblers in the assessment of their findings and chances by invoking statistical theory. The higher the numerical assessment, the higher the likelihood of a correct outcome. A typical statement is something like this: “ We are confident that this result occurs 85 percent of the time, nineteen times out of twenty.”
Confidence is a tricky business. One can be totally confident that an event is going to happen and/or be successful only to be proven completely wrong by the events themselves. Confidence does not equate to certainty. Maybe elpis means something else?
I hardly think that hope is wishy washy. It's a legitimate feeling and is often motivational. At the othe end of the range, I indulge in hope every time I buy a lottery ticket, but have a low level of confidence that it will prove to be a big winner. No amount of positive thinking will affect the outcome of the draw.
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