Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Aaron wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
vision-master wrote:
Ludi wrote:
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Does it appear to you that I have rejected you?
No. I'm not even sure what you're talking about "rejecting me."
Just think about all those peeps who are gonna burn in Hell!
God is just. No one goes to hell who does'nt really deserve it. Have fun!
Do suicides go to hell?
Tell me why I suspect you know what the Bible says as well as most of us here?
Anyone who dies in their sins goes to hell. Some who think they might not make it to heaven do and many who are sure they will make it don't.
I have known people who committed suicide so the issue is not just philosophical for me. A shallow religious answer is no, because suicide is murdering yourself. Are there circumstances where the attempt is not as clean as a person wished and then in those last moments they make their peace with God I do not know, it is possible. I do know that God is just and no one who does not deserve to go to hell goes there.
I have been more or less close to at least four people who have committed suicide. No matter what a person is going through that is never the option. It always leaves a legacy of pain and confusion, depression and doubt to those who are left behind. Suicide is never seen in the Bible except as an act by those who have forsaken God, so it does not bode well.
It is hard to imagine God condemning someone who spent all of their life abused and then in a fit of desparation killed themselves. So the simple answer is it does not look like suicide is an acceptable escape clause, but we cannot know in every case.
God is just, those who deserve to go to hell go. Where is the line between someone who believes but keeps stumbling and then dies believing but with no fruit and someone who is truly wicked, that is for God to decide. God is just and God is love. He knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Suicide is not a solution to problems. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12024 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Suicide is never seen in the Bible except as an act by those who have forsaken God, so it does not bode well..
And epilepsy is seen as being caused by demons.
Do you think epilepsy is caused by demon possession? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
"Reasoning" and "bonding" with people, in hopes of persuading them to believe is a fruitless excercise.
Then why did Jesus perform miracles among the unwashed?
It seems to me that if bonding and reasoning with people is fruitless you would have to throw out most of the New Testament, since that is what most of it is about. Read the first few paragraphs of every one of Paul's letters. In virtually very case he opens with a comment on his bond with the people to whom he is writing, and then proceeds to reason his way through a description of the faith.
I think your comment is just another unhelpful scrap of dogma that makes Christianity seem like a kook club.
This strident Bible thumping holier than thou thing is such an obviously unproductive way of sharing ANY faith, I can't believe there are so many people out there doing it.
***
(BTW, welcome to peakoil.com)
I have to agree that Christianity is a kook club. But back to the main point which is we are justified by faith (or belief) not works.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is a big movement today (which is really an old movement) which encourages people to "live just like Jesus lived" feeding the poor, hanging out with the disenfranchised etc. which in the ned does nothing for a persons belief. When a person faces God and see his Holy, Sinless Perfection everything an anything we claim to have done will melt like wax.
God is a consuming fire - Why were ther Disciples do afraid that Jesus was in the boat with them ? Why did Isaiah say depart from me I am a man of unclean lips ? Why did the disciples fall down as dead on the mount of Transfiguration ? Or why did John fall at his feet:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Being in the presence of a perfect and Holy God is a fearful thing.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12024 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Matthew 25:31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
I have to agree that Christianity is a kook club. But back to the main point which is we are justified by faith (or belief) not works.
***
Being in the presence of a perfect and Holy God is a fearful thing.
On what basis did you conclude that the Bible was the word of God?
Heb 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. (3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4071 Location: Graceland
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
BigTex wrote:
AlwaysThere wrote:
I have to agree that Christianity is a kook club. But back to the main point which is we are justified by faith (or belief) not works.
***
Being in the presence of a perfect and Holy God is a fearful thing.
On what basis did you conclude that the Bible was the word of God?
Heb 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (2) For by it the elders obtained a good report. (3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
So you believe it because you believe it.
That's fine.
But don't you think that you ought to be able to explain it a little better than that to someone else with whom you are sharing your views?
What you are saying is exactly the same for every other faith under the sun--i.e., you believe it because you believe it. What is it about the Bible that is different and unique from other belief systems? _________________
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
zensui wrote:
Jesus Christ is just 2 words. Contemporary Christians use this words as if they were magical. Do you don't see the inherent inferior path you have chosen? It's all magic, chant some spells to be saved from fear of eternal pain, instead of making humans and life evolve to a more harmonious state.
When you said "inferior" you stepped off of your own path.
Nothing to be gained there.
And you know this.
...I guess you're right, but I don't know how to point the downsides of the "easy magic path of salvation" gently. Maybe because it's the language and thought flow that lead me out of dogma's jail recently (as in ~3 years ago) and still use it to not "fall back". About superior/inferior, I focus mostly on I being superior to my former self. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
zensui wrote:
BigTex wrote:
(...)
For example, if I say "Christianity will provide you comfort when you eventually have to face death", it would be reasonable for you to say "okay then, can you show me how it is providing you comfort in smaller matters?" I would need to be able to show you that.
But ultimately, I think that any faith or belief system needs to provide you with a sense of wholeness in your world TODAY. If all it does is provide you with a deferred promise of understanding, peace, or eternal life at some point in the future, I'm not sure how useful that is.
The future, like the past, is just an abstraction. Thus, if the only sense of wholeness I have is based upon the expectation of a future event, in a sense I am living in a world of pure fantasy.
The experience of meditation is one based on the now. Nirvana is an experience that happens in life, not after death. I've had glimpses of Nirvana through the practice of meditation, following an ethical conduct and understanding wisdom of spirituality, mind, life, reality and so on (the Noble Path). This has made me more happy than I ever thought possible NOW, it's a continous, whole experience of bliss, happyness, equanimity, serenity, compassion, love and so on. This life experience feeds on the practice of meditation.
Of course it does, when you learn how to control your body and brina you can stimulate endorphin releases. That is not salvation, but it feels really good. I know many Christians who feel largely the same way after prayer. Sometimes you feel it sometimes you don't. However, there are differences between the kind of experience you are talking about and being born again.
(...)
I can say the same "your spiritual experiences are just neurological"; but I will not because I acknowledge the spiritual as not explained by physics.
I've reborn once in this same life, don't be so quick on conveniently labeling other's lifes as not transcendent or not spiritual by default. And since you so vehemently still say your path is the only and truthful, then there is no point in I reading the rest of your post. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
But don't you think that you ought to be able to explain it a little better than that to someone else with whom you are sharing your views?
What you are saying is exactly the same for every other faith under the sun--i.e., you believe it because you believe it. What is it about the Bible that is different and unique from other belief systems?
I guess I could, but unless it given to them to know they aren't going to know or understand.
Mat 13:9-11 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12024 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
I guess I could, but unless it given to them to know they aren't going to know or understand.
It's pretty much out of an individual's hands, and up to God, is what you're saying.
So, not much point in preaching or sharing the gospel, is there? I mean, everyone in our society has heard of Jesus and Christianity, so, if you aren't going to share your understanding and experience, there's really nothing to say to people about it, right? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
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