Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
Well, people will give lip service to them, but the popular interpretation of your message will become a concept called 'saved by grace', in which a person can become an immortal by accepting you as their Saviour, even though there may not be much change in the way they actually behave. Your teachings are going to be converted into a blank check to sin, and still provide the sinner with a ticket to immortality. "
And here we have it. No one can know himself let alone save himself without practicing humility and compassion. This is the most obvious element in what Jesus had to say.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
threadbear wrote:
The form of Christianity the fundamentalists are preaching is so alien to Christ's message it is essentially, logically anti-Christ. These people aren't a benign befuddled force. [...] There is no real love there, no real compassion. What burns in them is a deep desire for a simple explanation to life's woes, that will manifest, at some point, in a religious war, another inquisition, or holocaust. Again, there is nothing Christ like there, just the opposite. If I was a fundy myself, I'd say they were being infuenced by the devil, the great imposter, the father of lies.
There are very serious Christians who seem to have a similar perception, including Greek orthodox monks.
Btu
If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever.
Chapter 13, Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians
_________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Tue May 13, 2008 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
When you start talking about who is "evil" it's sometimes hard to know where to stop, other than to just say "evil people are those who do bad things that we don't agree with.
Can you say it to them with a clear heart ? Is it enough ?
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
I definitely do not think that multimillion dollar salaries for preaching what I consider to be speclation about the Bible is anything but greed.
I personally never understood how that sort of opulence matches the parable below.
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother." He said to him, "Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth." Jesus looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.
Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." They were greatly astounded and said to one another, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible."
Mark (10:17-27)
Btu
_________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Tue May 13, 2008 2:16 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:11 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
[quote="btu2012"]
BigTex wrote:
When you start talking about who is "evil" it's sometimes hard to know where to stop, other than to just say "evil people are those who do bad things that we don't agree with.
Can you say it to them with a clear heart ? Is it enough ?
You know I can't really get what you think posting stuff like that accomplishes. It is horror beyond belief. Ariosophy came right out of theosophy, the Nazi's got their marching orders by twisting what alot of people claim is the next great truth for the human race.
The devil is the one who inspires human to do such things to each other. And it is the devil who inspires humans to see his perversion and evil as somehow reflecting on God's character.
I think that you have some pretty serious personal problems. There is no excuse for posting those images in the way you did. It is disrespectful to the suffering those people suffered and it is a clear indication to me not of your concern for humans but of your hatred for all humans including yourself.
Highjacking the thread and trying to force people to think that God is evil by resorting to multimedia presentations of attrocities is just plain Luciferian.
If you are not in jail right now, you are shortly about to be. May God have mercy on your soul. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
You know I can't really get what you think posting stuff like that accomplishes. It is horror beyond belief.
It is also the truth of what humans did to each other only recently. Don't you think that all that suffering deserves an answer, so perhaps we find a way of not doing this to each other again ?
Part of what I posted is the result of the US dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, an act the consequences of which the US population was kindly "protected" from seeing by its leaders. We all know that the US still considers itself justified in that action, so I am asking the question whether being justified in doing anything isn't somehow one of the sources of the pain we are inflicting on each other. No one will be forgiven for such a crime just because he makes empty claims to have accepted Jesus as savior, and especially not if he commits the crime after he accepted him as such. Unless one somehow thinks that he can fool God. Since you keep talking about blasphemy.
Quote:
The devil is the one who inspires human to do such things to each other. And it is the devil who inspires humans to see his perversion and evil as somehow reflecting on God's character.
Can you expand on this ? Notice that I am not holding God responsible. I don't understand why you insist on making that claim about other posters.
Quote:
I think that you have some pretty serious personal problems. There is no excuse for posting those images in the way you did. It is disrespectful to the suffering those people suffered and it is a clear indication to me not of your concern for humans but of your hatred for all humans including yourself.
The suffering of those people was recorded against their will by Western journalists, and the images were published in newspapers a long time ago. This is how they entered the public domain. I was quite restrained in showing the true horrors of war, which in fact are much worse than what the pictures I posted could suggest. As a minister you ought to be aware of human suffering and of the fact that in Christianity it is traditionally viewed as redeeming rather than something to be prudish and oh-so-sensitive about. Your reaction is most un-Christian and devoid of compassion.
The only ones who hate humans here are those who try to hide the horrors which humans did and do to each other, therefore abetting and excusing the criminals responsible for them. As long as these horrors are not recognized and addressed, the casual and incessant cruelty which characterizes our societies will continue. It is well-known that mild exposure to the disasters of war (such a through pictures, movies etc) leads to disgust with war and rejection of violence in general. Of course that's not what our brainwashed societies get from Hollywood (who tries incessantly to glorify the horrors which we humans perpetrate in the name of profit and greed).
May I ask why you want so much to hide the truth from other people ?
May I ask why so many evangelicals supported the war in Iraq, sometimes cheering it on ?
Did Jesus teach them to bomb other countries on a whim ?
Does Jesus play politics ?
Is it blasphemy to mix politics with Jesus ?
Is it blasphemy to write the name of a presidential candidate on the cross ?
Is it still a sin to kill people, or someone found a literalist way of splitting hairs in order to justify that ? Please let me know, since I am not in lockstep with the latest developments in biblical interpretation.
Quote:
Highjacking the thread and trying to force people to think that God is evil by resorting to multimedia presentations of attrocities is just plain Luciferian.
Yes, we are all possessed by the devil. How loving of you.
Quote:
If you are not in jail right now, you are shortly about to be. May God have mercy on your soul.
Go visit Athos. See for yourself what it means to follow Jesus, from people who do try to follow him.
Truth and virtue are found through suffering and questioning, and first and foremost through honesty and self-analysis. Parroting empty words while declaring others to be evil isn't conducive to self-betterment, and indicates a mind preyed upon by pride and self-delusion.
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
AlwaysThere wrote:
Who is arguing ? POalex, Clueless, Gandalf and I appear to be in perfect harmony, you haven't noticed Ludi ? I have at least 50 friends who could jump "lock-step" into this converstation and be in perfect harmony.
Not everybody who claims Christ is of Christ.
Exactly. Many orthodox Christians, including monks, would view the likes of you as almost heretical.
"Justified" through faith only ?!?
Funny how your evangelical friends try to preach this cheapened and watered down form of "Christianity" to the few nations who managed to preserve something of what Christianity was supposed to be about. Spend 20 years in a cave in askesis and prayer before you start teaching others.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12548 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
BigTex wrote:
threadbear wrote:
I am trying to follow Christ's teachings and his example, and through that the bible becomes more transparent to me.
I'm doing that too!
That's awesome. Finally, someone I can have a simple conversation with.
See, to me that is a "true Christian" - a person who tries to follow Christ's teachings and his example.
'Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."' Matthew 28:18-20 _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Last edited by Ludi on Tue May 13, 2008 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
The teaching of scripture the Holy Spirit sanctions is infallible and without error, and wherever He goes there is fruit for God.
How do we know it is infallible and without error, other than the fact that you are reassuring us based upon your own personal subjective experience?
Quote:
This knowledge is an irreducible complexity of the Spirit, the Bible, faith in the believer, and the presence of the Holy Spirit (without which the Bible is but words and our faith in vain), together reveal things that one cannot know simply by memorizing the Bible, or attending a church somewhere. The missing ingredient is a real relationship with a risen Savior.
That's an amazing paragraph. I'm not sure what you'e saying, but it's still amazing.
Quote:
I would like to see you point out even one error in the Scripture. I do know that whose who read the Bible without the enlightenment that comes from knowing Jesus Christ do not understand it. They may be great orators of 'Christian Truth', but without the substance the word is hollow. That is both something the Bible teaches and something that one can corroborate with observations.
- Timeline through Adam and Eve only covers about 6,000 years. There is evidence of humans and pre-humans that go back well over 6,000 years.
- What about Neanderthal? They were pretty darn close to humans. Where do they fit into the creation story? Were they beasts of the field? Is that why Cro-Magnon was comfortable exterminating Neanderthal? Were Adam and Eve Cro-Mags?
- Where in the Old Testament do the cavemen migrate across the Bering Strait into the New World?
- What about the dinosaurs? How did such an important chapter in world history get left out of Genesis if Genesis starts at the beginning of the world?
- Who did Adam and Eve's kids marry?
- The Reported dimensions of Noah's ark would not hold all of the animals in the world. Not even close, even assuming he had the time to travel the whole world to collect them all.
- Who did Noah's family members marry? If they were the only living people left on the earth, how did they reproduce without their children marrying one another?
- Solomon in Ecclesiastes wrote that when you die you go in the ground and you are dead. New Testament says you can be immortal.
- If Solomon was the wisest man in the world and one of God's favorites, how did he get away with having 400 wives and 800 concubines when one instance of marital infidelity (or even thinking about it) is, according to Jesus, a violation of the Ten Commandments?
- Why was God a political activist in the Old Testament? He repeatedly took the Jews' side in disputes for which there was no evidence that the Jews were right. Shouldn't God be more of a referee than a participant in political issues?
- There is no after-life reported in the Old Testament. Why not?
- The timeline of Jesus's life and teachings are arranged differently in the four gospels. They are internally inconsistent. At most, only one account can be literally accurate.
- Why is Joseph's bloodline traced in the gospels? He was not related to Jesus in any way.
- Jesus specifically said that what one needed to do to follow him was give away all your possessions, take up your cross and follow him. Why does no Christian today do this?
- Paul and the rest of the Apostles obviously had some serious differences of opinion on a host of issues. The Apostles did not see that Jesus and his message had anything to do with non-Jews. Peter even called Paul's teaching "strange." Why was there division if the Apostles and Paul were bearers of infallible and inerrant truth?
- One gospel reports a major earthquake that ejected the prophets' bodies from their graves. There is no geologic evidence of such an earthquake. Why not?
- If the state of Texas executed someone, and then the dead person dug himself out of the grave and walked around telling everyone that the state of Texas had no power over him, don't you think that the state of Texas would make some record of this curious situation? Why did the Romans make no record of their crucifixion of Jesus not sticking?
- If miracles are a function of faith, then why do no documented miracles occur today? Do people today not have enough faith to walk on water, raise the dead, cast out demons, etc.?
- What about manifestations of God? Why are there no burning bushes, seas split in half, talking clouds and that sort of thing today? Is God shy now? _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
btu2012 wrote:
BigTex wrote:
When you start talking about who is "evil" it's sometimes hard to know where to stop, other than to just say "evil people are those who do bad things that we don't agree with.
Can you say it to them with a clear heart ? Is it enough ?
I can say to them that they were born into an unfair world and they were at the wrong end of the handiwork of men consolidating power.
That's the way the world works. It's ugly. I would not have done such things.
"Evil" is just an idea we came up with to demonize people we don't like.
No, it's not enough. That's why violence is not the solution; it's just the beginning of a new series of problems. _________________
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
You know I can't really get what you think posting stuff like that accomplishes. It is horror beyond belief. Ariosophy came right out of theosophy, the Nazi's got their marching orders by twisting what alot of people claim is the next great truth for the human race.
The devil is the one who inspires human to do such things to each other. And it is the devil who inspires humans to see his perversion and evil as somehow reflecting on God's character.
I think that you have some pretty serious personal problems. There is no excuse for posting those images in the way you did. It is disrespectful to the suffering those people suffered and it is a clear indication to me not of your concern for humans but of your hatred for all humans including yourself.
Every Christian church posts images of Jesus being murdered as a reminder of the horror he endured. Does that disrespect Jesus and his suffering? _________________
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
May I ask why so many evangelicals supported the war in Iraq, sometimes cheering it on ?
Having followed the American conservative discourse wtr. the Iraq war in the earlier years, I propose that most of them genuinely believed - and many still believe - that it was the morally right thing to do. Dethroning Saddam was compared to defeating Hitler, the human suffering caused by the war was seen as unavoidable as the bombing of strategic targets in Nazi Germany, and the war was supposed to lead to a new democratic Iraq. And to be fair, quite a few seculars supported and support the war on terror as well (including militant atheists Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens). But of course this doesn't acquit Evangelicals from the consequences of their affiliation with aggressive US foreign policies.
A lot of the conservative Christians' support for these policies is caused by their constant exposure to politically biased media and the human tendency to reject everything associated with "the other side", in this case secular liberalism. _________________ "A devastating error is to set up a political system based on [individual] desire... the best dictatorship would be one where the government prevents any economical growth."
"Only scarcity and effort make life worth living."
-Pentti Linkola
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