Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Hi everyone,
I am amazed at how everyone seems to miss some simple facts in the discussion and argumentation of hydrogen as an alternative and renewable energy*fuel source. First of all, catalyst plates are only necessary if you are using a fuel cell to capture and collect H2 gas in portable fuel cells. Yes, we can recycle the plates from catalytic convertors in junked cars and trucks, but that simply does not apply to the mass production and distribution of liquid H2 for use in fuel motored vehicles. Yes, the laws of thermodynamics requires that energy be used to produce H2 gas from water, as the "perpetual motion machine" has not yet been invented; except for superconductors that function at or around room temperature. Again that ugly thing called "costs versus profits" rears it's evil head.
However, there are now some new methods to produce H2 gas in sufficient quantities...one of which I believe may be the definitive answer. We now can produce H2 gas from seawater using RF radiation at specific microwave frequencies, some of which are more energetic than others. You may have heard of the recent "burning water" discovery. Using high gain emitters/antennas, power levels could be kept to an acceptable level without a huge amount of energy consumption. The real costs would more than likely come from having to employ special compressor equipment and technology that would safely purify, compress, liquify and store the liquid H2 for later distribution to the consumer.
It is interesting to note that every time a new technology to produce an alternative fuel is perfected, the oil companies swoop in and buy it up to prevent the public consumer from ever being able to use the new alternative fuel in their motor vehicle. Case in point; the electric car was developed and perfected by Chrysler back in the early to mid1970's, (I know for a fact because my close friend designed and helped build the prototype car), Exxon immediately bought it and locked it up in the vault.
Hydrogen is the ONLY carbon free and renewable alternative fuel source that we have other than solar and wind power. Hydrogen will eliminate all air pollution, as well as ozone depletion and global warming. The big oil companies must be dethroned from their pedestals of economic greed and gluttony, and they must not be allowed to seize and control the production and use of H2 gas!
Perhaps the "fuel supply" should be nationalized and strictly controlled by the government, after all nothing else has worked!
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: Hydrogen production with wind
Can someone tell me why we cannot use wind energy to pump the water from the ground and then to produce hydrogen onsite? Instead of using the wind electricity?
There is plenty of water to use, some of it nonpotable, but would not matter. The perceived water shortage is only as short as we want it to be. We still have millions of golf courses being irrigated with good water so until that ends, we are not SHORT on water. Plus, one center pivot for 160 acres uses up to 90 million gallons A YEAR for corn we ship to china etc. Or use for ethanol, etc.
With millions of pivots in the USA you can see we are using water inefficiently not out.
But back to the hydrogen. Can someone clue me in?
jk
Joined: Jun 03, 2004 Posts: 127 Location: Great Britain
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
What we need is a new energy source - hydrogen is not an energy source. You can't just mine it or pump it out of the ground, it has to be produced. You can get it from natural gas of course but that is a fossil fuel that is in increasingly short supply, and if we massively ramped up hydrogen production from natural gas then it will be gone even faster.
The long term solution is from water, but as the chemical bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen are so strong it will always take more energy to get the hydrogen out than you'll get from the hydrogen. So you've got an energy sink. This is the main problem but there are so many others that make the idea of a hydrogen economy a bad joke.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Yes, hydrogen will always be a "battery", but what if you have enough energy to begin with to "charge" that "battery?"
From my very layman's understanding of what the experts are saying is there seem to be 2 main arguments.
1. What is the overall ERoEI of our future renewable energy grid going to be?
2. What is the likely expense associated with hydrogen verses using the electricity in the first place?
1. ERoEI. The obvious statement is that ERoEI represents how much "real" energy we can use, and the less energy the more efficient we are going to have to be. "Hydrogen for all" is not a very efficient use of energy.
Measuring ERoEI is also very difficult. There is no standard in measuring EroEI.
As The Wiki says...
Quote:
Measuring the EROEI of a single physical process is unambiguous, but there is no agreed standard on which activities should be included in measuring the EROEI of an economic process. In addition, the form of energy of the input can be completely different from the output. For example, energy in the form of coal could be used in the production of ethanol. This might have an EROEI of less than one, but could still be desirable due to the benefits of liquid fuels.
If Wind is up near the Danish ERoEI study (at about 50 to 60) then there may be ample energy to both run our civilisation, subsidise the construction of other renewables with lower ERoEI (solar PV, etc) AND split water. If it is lower, say in TOD's range of 18 to 24, then maybe we'll have to be a bit more conservative with our energy use and build trnasport systems like electric trains, trams, and trolley buses that use it more efficiently. The beauty of reliable public transport systems is the flow on effects. "If you build it, they will come". Build a rail line and New Urbanism creeps in around it... providing an economic backbone and transport lifeblood to the surrounding suburbs. They can then be rezoned, and natural attrition can eventually turn the suburban landscape back into localized parks, woodlands and farming over the next generation. We built it — and careful town planning can unbuild it and restore the natural systems.
2. The economics. The energy will just cost too much to manufacture.
1. The only alternative then is to split water which uses half the original electricity.
2. Then we have to compress the hydrogen into a tank (or liquefy it) which wastes more energy just to store the hydrogen in sufficient energy densities to power a vehicle.
3. Then we "burn" it in a hydrogen fuel cell car — which is only 50% efficient with what little hydrogen energy we have left. (It's not really "burning" it but you know what I mean).
4. All this effort only to generate electricity again which is what we had in the first place!
Dr. Ulf Bossel is the organiser of the European Fuel Cell Forum. Indeed, we learn from The Watt podcast (worth downloading) that his great great grandfather Christian Friedrich Schonbein invented the Fuel Cell in 1838!
Listen here
If anyone had a bias towards fuel cells which are the basis of a future "hydrogen economy" it would be him!
So what does he argue? Simply this: the "hydrogen economy" is a waste of time and effort and money because the very laws of physics dictate that the fuel will be 4 times more expensive. He's scientifically honest enough to state that the "hydrogen economy" is simply not going to happen.
Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Redding , Ca
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
There's a company in New Jersey that has taken old , proven technologies along with hydrogen fuel cells and added a
few of their own discoveries to develop an add-on kit to existing
engines . This unit reformulates the fuel . They have sold several thousand kits and the average
increase in fuel economy is 95% , thus they guarantee a 50% increase or your money back . Some of the modifications have obtained 200% improvement .
No infrastructure is required because the hydrogen is produced on board on demand .
That's phase #1 , phase #2 is a replacement of the catalytic converter now in use which burns ( wastes ) the unburnt fuel . The new invention utilizes this waste carbon to produce and burn energy . They tested it on a dynomometer on a Chrysler 318 engine , simulating pulling a trailer with a 50% load up a 30% grade at 3,000 rpms for an hour . Before modification the engine used 18 pounds of fuel ( 22 MPG ) and after modification utilized 2 pounds of fuel ( 196 MPG ) . This technology is awaiting EPA and CARB approvals prior to release .
BTW , the highly publicized " Oil shortage " may be a huge fraud .
Go to : http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html and watch a speech by Layton Williams in a series of tapes . He sure sounds convincing to me .
Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Redding , Ca
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
There's a company in New Jersey that has taken old , proven technologies along with hydrogen fuel cells and added a
few of their own discoveries to develop an add-on kit to existing
engines . This unit reformulates the fuel . They have sold several thousand kits and the average
increase in fuel economy is 95% , thus they guarantee a 50% increase or your money back . Some of the modifications have obtained 200% improvement .
No infrastructure is required because the hydrogen is produced on board on demand .
That's phase #1 , phase #2 is a replacement of the catalytic converter now in use which burns ( wastes ) the unburnt fuel . The new invention utilizes this waste carbon to produce and burn energy . They tested it on a dynomometer on a Chrysler 318 engine , simulating pulling a trailer with a 50% load up a 30% grade at 3,000 rpms for an hour . Before modification the engine used 18 pounds of fuel ( 22 MPG ) and after modification utilized 2 pounds of fuel ( 196 MPG ) . This technology is awaiting EPA and CARB approvals prior to release .
BTW , the highly publicized " Oil shortage " may be a huge fraud .
Go to : http://www.reformation.org/energy-non-crisis.html and watch a speech by Layton Williams in a series of tapes . He sure sounds convincing to me .
Joined: May 17, 2008 Posts: 47 Location: UK, Yorkshire
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
A couple of points in reference to my earlier post on this thread:
eclipse wrote:
2. The economics. The energy will just cost too much to manufacture.
1. The only alternative then is to split water which uses half the original electricity.
One 'use case' of the ITM/Rouse route is to use the waste electricity from renewables such as wind and wave, which would otherwise be lost during low peak times, e.g. at 3am, to power an electrolyser that generates hydrogen and oxygen from water. This would also act as an energy store for other purposes e.g. an onsite hydrogen fuelled power station. This would also improve the economics of renewables.
Quote:
2. Then we have to compress the hydrogen into a tank (or liquefy it) which wastes more energy just to store the hydrogen in sufficient energy densities to power a vehicle.
Again, it would use 'waste' energy. A small domestic electrolyser has demonstrably produced energy of enough density (compressed H not liquefied) to power a standard compact 'duel fuel' ford focus for 25 miles on an overnight 'charge'.
Quote:
3. Then we "burn" it in a hydrogen fuel cell car — which is only 50% efficient with what little hydrogen energy we have left. (It's not really "burning" it but you know what I mean).
4. All this effort only to generate electricity again which is what we had in the first place!
As implied above: you don't need a fuel cell to exploit hydrogen as a fuel - it can be burned in a near standard car engine.
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
@ Newbonic
Quote:
(compressed H not liquefied) to power a standard compact 'duel fuel' ford focus for 25 miles on an overnight 'charge'.
That's interesting Newbonic... do you have any references for that?
It's about what I expected. It's not going to do the 100 miles a day commute that End of Suburbia portrayed many American's doing, but 25 miles is still a useful distance for me (given I work from home). I wonder how much the home infrastructure would cost if I wanted to "save" my nightly fuel, and how long I could store it?
Ulf Bossel's point is pretty much proved though. Overnight "off-peak demand" (what we call it in Australia... with peak talking about demand, not supply) is probably the only way we could do this without crashing the grid, and yet even that doesn't supply the fuel needs of many, many Americans. But it's a good start hey?
@ Future4u
I wouldn't get too excited about Layton. I'm a Christian and have published peak oil articles in Christian magazines. Yet I have learned to be very sceptical about technical claims by pastors, especially the right wing — "God bless America" kind.
This company official said to me,"Chaplain, that great pool of oil is probably as big as the Prudhoe oil field, it has been proven, drilled into, and tested—we know what is there and we know the amount that is there, but the government has ordered us not to produce that well, or reveal any information as to what is at Gull Island."
He's going on about no energy crisis, but states that another field the size of Prudhoe bay would make America energy independent. That's an interesting claim because Prudhoe bay did not make America energy independent, it did not stop America's oil production decline profile, but only slowed it. I sure admit another Prudhoe bay would be enormously significant to the American economy and give America a bit more time, but given the power of exponential growth in consumption, it would be eaten up pretty quick.
Basically, given the ENORMOUS power and speed of growth, all nations will face an energy and resource crisis until they can run on renewable energy built from renewable materials. (Babies born today will see peak metals in their lifetimes).
So basically, I'm sceptical about the claims of some Pastor-in-denial claiming the energy crisis has been manufactured by the government. Tell me, what's this guy's position on Global Warming? I'm guessing that he's in denial over that as well? Please prove me wrong... it would be nice to find an American pastor that might accept some science and... maybe even vote towards the left a little? _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Joined: May 17, 2008 Posts: 47 Location: UK, Yorkshire
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:42 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
eclipse wrote:
@ Newbonic
Quote:
(compressed H not liquefied) to power a standard compact 'duel fuel' ford focus for 25 miles on an overnight 'charge'.
That's interesting Newbonic... do you have any references for that?
It's about what I expected. It's not going to do the 100 miles a day commute that End of Suburbia portrayed many American's doing, but 25 miles is still a useful distance for me (given I work from home). I wonder how much the home infrastructure would cost if I wanted to "save" my nightly fuel, and how long I could store it?
Ulf Bossel's point is pretty much proved though. Overnight "off-peak demand" (what we call it in Australia... with peak talking about demand, not supply) is probably the only way we could do this without crashing the grid, and yet even that doesn't supply the fuel needs of many, many Americans. But it's a good start hey?
[b]
No problem Eclipse, the vehicle is featured on the latest news PDF on ITM press release (I won't link directly to a 1 meg PDF!).
I would imagine a smaller car such as a Ford Ka would do better than 30 miles, as a Focus is still nearly 1.5 tonnes of metal and glass. I like the fact that it uses existing automotive technology i.e. no major re-designs or production line re-tooling needed.
One ITM 'use case' is a domestic electrolyser with solar PV as the input to generate the H, which would make it off grid. I guess this would only work in sunnier climes than the UK, and if solar PV drops in price considerably.
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Wow. If those fuel cell + catalyst prices are for real, this could be very interesting.
Tell me, have you seen a price cost / distance travelled? How much electricity would this require for say 50 km, compared to just charging it in a BEV?
If we ever get a high storage renewable powered battery made from renewable materials, then that might be even cheaper. I still think the laws of thermodynamics mean we're wasting energy here, and if the post-fossil fuel world has a lower ERoEI than the current world, we are going to have to be much smarter and more efficient in our energy use.
I still think trams are the best way to secure transport, and then New Urbanism creeps in around them over the next decades. I hate cars... the traffic, the bland sameness of suburbia, the "geography of nowhere", the accidents, deaths, congestion, time wasted, lack of intimacy in community... the sheer Co2 emitted and energy wasted in building all these cars in the first place... much better off without them.
Save the energy for the emergency vehicles and delivery vans... we need cops, medics, groceries and mail.... at least until we can calculate the real ERoEI of a post-oil world. _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Sorry to be off topic, but I figured the people involved in this debate would be the best to ask.
I am a high school junior. I would like to be involved in the search for an efficient energy storage medium (such as hydrogen) in the future. What major/ combo of majors should I study? What schools do you recommend for these majors who have connections to the industry?
The fact that I'm on this forum as opposed to Facebook should prove my interest on this topic!
Thanks for any advice
Joined: May 17, 2008 Posts: 47 Location: UK, Yorkshire
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
amdn wrote:
Sorry to be off topic, but I figured the people involved in this debate would be the best to ask.
I am a high school junior. I would like to be involved in the search for an efficient energy storage medium (such as hydrogen) in the future. What major/ combo of majors should I study? What schools do you recommend for these majors who have connections to the industry?
The fact that I'm on this forum as opposed to Facebook should prove my interest on this topic!
Thanks for any advice
If you have a dig around the ITM site I linked to above you'll find some potted bios of some of the scientists & technologists who work on their electrolysers & fuel cells. Off hand, I'd say fields such as materials science (I have a BSc in Metallurgy btw, although polymer science looks at least as applicable to their gel fuel cells), or chemical engineering. It's a multi disciplinary field.
To ECLIPSE: Sorry, I don't know the power used to generate 25miles worth in a Focus - I presume it's more than to charge a set of batteries in a BEV. But as there are many hundreds of millions of IC engines in cars worldwide, complete with production lines and dealer networks etc, and essentially a negligible numbers of BEVS, then this is not much of a disadvantage from a practical point of view (at least over the decade or two necessary to move away from near total dependence on fossil fuels).
I was discussing this issue with a friend who's a power tool designer and production engineer (he knows lots about electric motors basically). He's sceptical about the mass adoption of BEVS because he thinks that were there hundreds of millions of 'em it would push the cost of conductors such as copper too much. We were just chewing the fat over a few beers in the pub though!
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: The Hydrogen economy - The physics
Quote:
We were just chewing the fat over a few beers in the pub though!
You weren't "peaking" him then? Sure sure... just a "friendly chat" over a few beers...
OK, I have been known to "Peak" people....
Now, where were we? Yes, copper restrictions on BEV's.
You know, that's the one that really freaks me out a bit. I can pretty much imagine a world without oil — a nice bright green world of eco-cities, energy efficient lifestyles and yet still some modern conveniences and computers and the internet.
But "peak metals" is the one that really troubles me. I know metals, unlike energy, can be recycled... but don't we lose some each time?
It takes a lot of metal to run a wind turbine, electricity grid, and industrial production... and according to Lester Brown, we are going to see the end of mining for most metals in the lifetimes of babies born today... EVEN iron ore! (Based on USGS reserves data and 2% annual consumption growth). _________________ www.eclipsenow.blogspot.com
Free peak oil posters to download, print out, and put up at your local shops and library.
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