Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
Gerben wrote:
shortonoil wrote:
Actually it is rather doubtful that you will see anything of value at all in the Lame Stream Media. The media is about selling advertisers’ products and supplying entertainment to the proletariat.
I think it's more a question of anything you would value. Most biofuels have a positive EROEI. You might not like it, but that's not the point.
It depends on what study you read. Studies pumped by interested parties always seem to find an extra energy credit to slip the biofuel industry. Those with no axe to grind tell the truth.
The media depends on adverti$ers. So does academia and government. Everyone in Ameri$a is in the bu$iness of drumming up bu$iness and po$itive eroei is good for bu$iness. Else why bother tyring. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
Gerben wrote:
pstarr wrote:
It depends on what study you read.
So could you get me links to studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels have a negative EROEI?
Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.' _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
pstarr said:
Quote:
Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.'
My favorite is the Iowa Corn Growers Association study that shows that ethanol has a positive ERoEI. When you read into it, you find out it is only positive if the mash from the distillation process is fed to Iowa pigs.
Soon, I suspect, there will be a campaign to get everyone to eat 2 lbs. of bacon a day; in the interest of national energy sovereignty.
"Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!" source unknown
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
shortonoil wrote:
pstarr said:
Quote:
Sure I could but you'd have to first amend the question. Something like '. . . links to good studies that conclude that all (or most) biofuels . . . etc.'
My favorite is the Iowa Corn Growers Association study that shows that ethanol has a positive ERoEI. When you read into it, you find out it is only positive if the mash from the distillation process is fed to Iowa pigs.
Soon, I suspect, there will be a campaign to get everyone to eat 2 lbs. of bacon a day; in the interest of national energy sovereignty.
"Figures don’t lie, but liars figure!" source unknown
They reference the Shapouri study, which is government propaganda. I once computed the number of hamburgers that we would have to eat to absorb all that extra mash. It was something like 8 every day.
What the study ignores is the cost to process and distribute the mash. It is a sad joke. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
pstarr said:
Quote:
I once computed the number of hamburgers that we would have to eat to absorb all that extra mash. It was something like 8 every day.
Someday when you have absolutely nothing else to do, and you are dying of boredom, you will have to post those calculations. You may have derived the absolute best and pentacle of PO humor!
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
pstarr wrote:
shortonoil wrote:
dorlomin said:
Quote:
However thinking of the climate in Indonesia it may only be a matter of time before sugar-cane replaces palm oil.
Thinking about the paucity of nutrients in the soil of the tropical rain forests, without the application of hydrocarbon based fertilizers, their life span can be measured in a very few years.
Most bio-fuels are net energy losers, and unless there is a lot of petrochemicals to plow into them, they won’t last for long. It looks like the age of abundant, cheap hydrocarbons has run it course. Don’t worry about the tropical rain forest, they will outlast the age of oil, their greatest treat, by a few hundred million years.
I really enjoying the coming peak-oil termination of rampant consumption, rainforest depletion, ocean fisheries' decline, CO2 emissions, the sprawl lifestyle, '2nd' homes (most people don't 'vacation' in them, they only watch TV), endless mind-numbingly commutes, dumb kids, MacIntoshes and vegetarians.
And what is wrong with computers that last longer because they use high quality components and an OS that doesn't need a re-format every few months because it's crap? What is wrong with eating something that is more resource and energy efficient than meat?
I'm typing this on a Mac, on a day I didn't eat any kind of meat. I won't eat red meats and won't go back to Windows, both are crap.
Your 2 last list items shouldn't be there. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: Palm oil bust in Asia
zensui wrote:
pstarr wrote:
shortonoil wrote:
dorlomin said:
Quote:
However thinking of the climate in Indonesia it may only be a matter of time before sugar-cane replaces palm oil.
Thinking about the paucity of nutrients in the soil of the tropical rain forests, without the application of hydrocarbon based fertilizers, their life span can be measured in a very few years.
Most bio-fuels are net energy losers, and unless there is a lot of petrochemicals to plow into them, they won’t last for long. It looks like the age of abundant, cheap hydrocarbons has run it course. Don’t worry about the tropical rain forest, they will outlast the age of oil, their greatest treat, by a few hundred million years.
I really enjoying the coming peak-oil termination of rampant consumption, rainforest depletion, ocean fisheries' decline, CO2 emissions, the sprawl lifestyle, '2nd' homes (most people don't 'vacation' in them, they only watch TV), endless mind-numbingly commutes, dumb kids, MacIntoshes and vegetarians.
And what is wrong with computers that last longer because they use high quality components and an OS that doesn't need a re-format every few months because it's crap? What is wrong with eating something that is more resource and energy efficient than meat?
I'm typing this on a Mac, on a day I didn't eat any kind of meat. I won't eat red meats and won't go back to Windows, both are crap.
Your 2 last list items shouldn't be there.
I was hoping for a bite
As much as I appreciate excellence and elegance in manufacturing, I just can't seem to shake my impression that Macs are consumer goods.
As for vegetarianism I find it ironic that you would define you self by your consumption patterns. As for red meat it is a food we raise and produce ourselves, as opposed to fish which we mine mindlessly from the oceans much to their depletion. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
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