Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
GeoJAP wrote:
If I could make an objective comment, the original poster is reacting in a classic "liberal" fashion. As this article explains, a study concluded that liberals cannot rationalize inequality and are frustrated by it.
And what of George Soros? Do you think he would agree with you? He's one of the wealthiest men in the world. Do you think he believes in the wisdom, nay the COMPASSION, the tough love of markets? Do you think he might know a bit about this, or is he a deluded, liberal, bachelor of arts, financial loser?
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
And furthermore......
GeoJap--Soros on market fundamentalism.
A. Since the 1980s, the global financial system has been dominated by an ideology I call market fundamentalism - the idea that markets are perfect and regulations are always flawed. But markets aren't perfect. Left to their own devices, they always go to extremes of either euphoria or despair. The Federal Reserve and other regulators should recognize this, since they've had to bail out the markets in crisis after crisis since the 1980s.
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
Bull crap. PStarr. There's plenty we can do about it. Central banks could stop this, in a heart beat by doing what the IMF prescribes for all irresponsible govts. Raise interest rates. Reregulate banking, commodity markets, etc...
Real assets are tied up by corporate law that demands maximization of profit and thus maximal extraction and profit from the land. Corporations must clearcut forests, trample agriculture land, and strip topsoil for minerals. If you want to change this you must change the very nature of the corporation and the corporate charter in the United States so that these institutions serve the commonweal and not the investor class.
Futhermore, land not tied up in this financial system is owned by families and decendants that do not want you messing with their prerogatives.
You are not a communist are you? _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
pstarr wrote:
threadbear wrote:
Bull crap. PStarr. There's plenty we can do about it. Central banks could stop this, in a heart beat by doing what the IMF prescribes for all irresponsible govts. Raise interest rates. Reregulate banking, commodity markets, etc...
Real assets are tied up by corporate law that demands maximization of profit and thus maximal extraction and profit from the land. Corporations must clearcut forests, trample agriculture land, and strip topsoil for minerals. If you want to change this you must change the very nature of the corporation and the corporate charter in the United States so that these institutions serve the commonweal and not the investor class.
Futhermore, land not tied up in this financial system is owned by families and decendants that do not want you messing with their prerogatives.
You are not a communist are you?
What's more, international trade agreements have to be repealed, in some cases, and radically altered in others. Necessary firewalls have to be reinstalled around nation states. This is simply financially conservative, not communist.
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
pstarr wrote:
threadbear wrote:
Bull crap. PStarr. There's plenty we can do about it. Central banks could stop this, in a heart beat by doing what the IMF prescribes for all irresponsible govts. Raise interest rates. Reregulate banking, commodity markets, etc...
Real assets are tied up by corporate law that demands maximization of profit and thus maximal extraction and profit from the land. Corporations must clearcut forests, trample agriculture land, and strip topsoil for minerals. If you want to change this you must change the very nature of the corporation and the corporate charter in the United States so that these institutions serve the commonweal and not the investor class.
Futhermore, land not tied up in this financial system is owned by families and decendants that do not want you messing with their prerogatives.
You are not a communist are you?
What's more, international trade agreements have to be repealed, in some cases, and radically altered in others. Necessary firewalls have to be reinstalled around nation states. This is simply financially conservative, not communist.
But they will call you a communist for trying it. And probably aim a hydrogen bomb at your home to make sure you listen good. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
So you have no problem with Vulture capital, working through real estate investment trusts, for example, buying up distressed American mortgage debt for pennies on the dollar?
Works for me.
threadbear wrote:
You realize, through this and other processes, the U.S loses sovereignty? Do you have any idea where this process ultimately leads?
Sure.
When I see our rulers (no, not leaders - rulers) seal the borders, end free trade, balance the budget, and end foreign aid of every sort, I'll think about it.
Until then, I'll go with the flow.
And now, a question for you - what, precisely, is an American? (By American I refer to the U.S., and membership in the society).
Let us not resort to legalisms, for example "someone who is, according to existing law, a citizen of the U.S.". No - how can I look at someone, talk with them, and conclude they are (or are not) a U.S. citizen? I suspect you will find no clear demarcation.
But if I do not know - and cannot describe - the members of my country, do I have a country? Or do I merely share a marketplace with other greedy opportunists? If the later, why should I not seek to profit, even to the detriment of the shared marketplace?
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
Jack, I guess being "American" is a little like being "black". It is a general consensus creation. It's not simply what you consider yourself, it's what you are considered by others.
I understand why people reach a point where they conclude it's just easier to go with the flow, too, like you, Jack. A person can only take so much chronic disappointment in their fellow man without becoming cynical. I'm trying very hard not to end up there...but then I haven't been exposed to some of the things I'm sure you've been exposed to.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
I understand why people reach a point where they conclude it's just easier to go with the flow, too, like you, Jack. A person can only take so much chronic disappointment in their fellow man without becoming cynical. I'm trying very hard not to end up there...but then I haven't been exposed to some of the things I'm sure you've been exposed to.
Disappointment is usually the result of unrealistic expectations.
How did you arrive at your initial expectations that led to disappointment?
It can be a tremendous relief to just accept the world as it is without judging it based upon the standards you may apply to yourself.
Once you fully internalize the world as it is, nothing will ever disappoint you again. You will only have pleasant surprises.
To me, being realistic in this way is the cure for cycnicism, not the cause of it. Cynicism is, to me, just the manifestation of an unrealistic set of expectations.
Another matter that can be quite liberating is to stop judging people who don't meet your standards. The world is full of people who do dumb things. I've done dumb things myself. When I hear of people doing dumb things, even incredibly dumb things, I don't judge them, I just try to make sure I have not depended upon them to be smart, because that would mean that I was not being realistic about things in the first place.
I am not condoning anything by recognizing that it happens. It's just that ultimately my judgment regarding the rightness or wrongness of what someone else does is irrelevant, unless I happen to be a judge or jury member, or I find him in my living room in the middle of the night.
Even if I were the one in position to render a judgment, I wouldn't imagine it was because I represented what was "right", it would merely be because I was the one who wielded the power over that individual. In other words, "right" is not some driving force that seeks justice; rather, it is power that is the driving force, which may synch up with agreed upon notions of "right" and "justice" in certain societies.
Concepts of "right" and "justice" are outfits that power wears when it goes to parties with its sophisticated friends. _________________
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
aflurry wrote:
(...)
So now we're berating each other for how much or how little we care for morality, suffering, and the end of civilization? we suck. none of us know each other well enough for that, which pretty much guarantees that any comments about someone else's moral turpitude or naiveties are more likely emissions of our own buried fears, for we are each of us our own psychology's bitch.
Buried fears? Why most people think that being free of fears is impossible? It's not impossible. Why fear? Nothing useful or noble can come from fear. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
DefiledEngine wrote:
Quote:
Life can't be completely fair, but it isn't in my nature to ignore what could become murder, suffering and deprivation on a massive scale. It gives my life substance and meaning to simply care. That may seem foolish, but man doesn't live by chicken fried steak alone.
So I take it you're upset over the injustice of resource use and distribution? Then why have you bought a computer which you are now just using for non-essential entertainment?
A computer is a tool. It can be used for non-essential entertainment, but it's still a tool. Same with the Internet. And openly writting and reading about Peak Oil is NOT entertainment, it's an honest reaction to Peak Oil... although, if not accompained by action on the "real world", can become "doom 'n gloom entertainment". _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
BigTex, I understand what you're saying, and agree with your point of developing a philosophy that buffers disappointment. I'm not a disappointed person, but I do understand them. I've worked with kids enough to see, how some of them can become embittered and cynical for the rest of their lives. It becomes self reinforcing, but you have to admit, they have a ton of material to work with. It's not as if they have to cherry pick to access tremendous amounts of negativity.
The rest of your post could be interpreted as being comfortably apolitical. For whose sake? Are you saying that nobody can make any approximate kind of judgement about what is right and what is wrong?
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4309 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
The rest of your post could be interpreted as being comfortably apolitical. For whose sake? Are you saying that nobody can make any approximate kind of judgement about what is right and what is wrong?
We can all absolutely make judgments about what is right and what is wrong. Where we get exhausted, however, is in assuming everyone else shares our sense of right and wrong in a given case (or in any case), or in assuming that because we have judged something to be wrong that the existing power structure will lend some of its mojo to righting the wrong.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6475 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
threadbear wrote:
Jack, I guess being "American" is a little like being "black". It is a general consensus creation. It's not simply what you consider yourself, it's what you are considered by others.
I had a friend once who participated in a contest to answer the question, "What is an American?"
His submission was, "An American is an asshole."
No, he didn't win. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6475 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Forgive me for being irritating.
Jack wrote:
threadbear wrote:
So you have no problem with Vulture capital, working through real estate investment trusts, for example, buying up distressed American mortgage debt for pennies on the dollar?
Works for me.
threadbear wrote:
You realize, through this and other processes, the U.S loses sovereignty? Do you have any idea where this process ultimately leads?
Sure.
When I see our rulers (no, not leaders - rulers) seal the borders, end free trade, balance the budget, and end foreign aid of every sort, I'll think about it.
Until then, I'll go with the flow.
And now, a question for you - what, precisely, is an American? (By American I refer to the U.S., and membership in the society).
Let us not resort to legalisms, for example "someone who is, according to existing law, a citizen of the U.S.". No - how can I look at someone, talk with them, and conclude they are (or are not) a U.S. citizen? I suspect you will find no clear demarcation.
But if I do not know - and cannot describe - the members of my country, do I have a country? Or do I merely share a marketplace with other greedy opportunists? If the later, why should I not seek to profit, even to the detriment of the shared marketplace?
Dead serious, Threadbear.
It occurs to me that, both as individuals and as people relating to one another, humans were never designed to fit into such gigantic categories. Once you get beyond small groups, it's all propaganda.
There is no "American." But, for better or worse (and I think it is worse, now), there is definitely a political entity called America. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
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