peak oil - Muslim Perspective

btu2012

I support POAlex's description of the Trinity. It is not polytheism in any sense, but an attempt to describe the nature of the Biblical God. To accuse Trinitarians of polytheism is inaccurate. Extraordinary care was shown to this issue by all Christian theological formulations, precisely because of the desire to avoid any polytheistic misunderstanding. Moreover all interpretations of the Trinity which had any remote polytheistic flavor were explicitly and repeatedly declared heretical by innumerable Church councils etc.

Regarding icons etc, it is also exaggerated to call them idols. Idol means something invested with God-like powers, but icons are not such. They are pictorial representations of the human aspect of Jesus, of the human being called Mary etc. Veneration of icons is not idolatry by a long shot.

Bowing to priests etc is only a custom, which means nothing else. Priests are not viewed as anything more than humans in both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. It is also the case that in many protestant denominations people tend to show customary forms of respect to preachers, presbiters etc. That doesn't amount to idolizing them. As far as I can observe there are similar customary forms of respect shown to mullahs etc in Islam, which are not understood by anybody as forms of idolatry.

Also it needs to be stressed that in both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy there is no theological concept of an obligation to bow to priests, icons etc -- that's something that belongs to the customs of various groups but is not in any way part of the theology of those denominations. As far as I understand the only theological issues concern some of the claims of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, papal infallibility etc -- which indeed have no scriptural basis.

On the other hand tradition is just tradition (i.e. custom) and does not have much theological significance. And a lot of tradition exists in Islam in the form of hadiths etc.

Thus it seems to me that the theological differences between Christian denominations are overdone, and that the accusation of idolatry leveled by both Judaism and Islam against some forms of Christianity is simply exaggerated. I am not aware of any Christian who confuses icons with idols or Mary with God etc.

It is very clear to me at least that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are very closely related religions so it is puzzling that so much extreme disagreement seems to exist between their "adepts". There seems to be a pronounced tendency of these adepts to spend extraordinary energy debating minute points of doctrine (and sometimes killing each other over such) rather than concentrating on the essential message of these religions which as far as I can see concerns a form of ethics and virtue.
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mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40

I am aware of the differences between Catholics and other denominations. That is why I have made a clear distinction between the teachings of Paul and that of unitarians. I have only responded to accusations that the Muslims do not follow the ten commandments.

Trinity is three not one despite exhaustive and confusing attempts by Christians to make it apppear so. The response in the Quran is as follows (Chapter 5)

72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 782
73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy) verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
74 Why turn they not to Allah and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the Apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth makes His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! 783 784
76 Say: Will ye worship besides Allah something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
77 Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper) trespassing beyond the truth nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by who misled many and strayed (themselves) from the even way. 785

btu2012 · Last edited by btu2012 on Sun May 25, 2008 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total

btu2012

double
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btu2012

I also wish to make some remarks on the fall of Baghdad etc.
I agree with Islamic posters that this was an unmitigated disaster for ME culture, whose historical impact can hardly be overestimated.

The West can be quite blind to the effects of historical forces which it is unfamiliar with, and the utter destruction wrought by the Mongol empire is one of the factors they seem to have little understanding of. It is a great example of historical irony that medieval France (a Christian kingdom) actually had an alliance with the Mongols aimed in particular against fellow Christian kingdoms in Eastern Europe. The Mongol invasions devastated Eastern Europe as well as the Middle East, and pushed back those regions a few centuries. Anyone who fails to understand this does not know his history.

It is also true that Western imperialism compounded the damage done by the Mongol invasions and later by the Ottoman Empire, and it is strange to see that some people
are rather quick to dismiss the effect of that. The Arab peoples were allies of the West against the Ottomans, only to be later betrayed in the most egregious manner by Britain, France and the like. The "mandates" created after WWI were run like colonialist fiefs, and the ME was subjected to enormous interference by the West and by the Soviet Union after WWII. There are good reasons why so many ME nations are upset with the West's attitude toward those nations, and any honest discussion must start with a recognition of that history and hopefully an abandonment of that attitude by the West.
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mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40

Hidden:

There has not been any killing over different interpretations of doctrine. The crusades, the war on terror, the war against Chechnya, Palestinian holocaust etc. has always been about money, oil, land and power. The politicians present a facade of righteousness to justify their inhumane actions thereby gaining support of the gullible masses.

btu2012

I wish it where that simple.

In the Byzantine empire there was literally lots of killing over doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

Also think about the Inquisition, the burning of witches etc. The religious wars during the Reformation and so on.

The Crusades didn't have any economic motivation, in fact it was rather stupid of Europeans to spend resources on and send people to control a few distant pieces of land in the Middle East such as Jerusalem. That was purely an issue of fanaticism.

You can argue that the 4th crusade was politically motivated (Bizantium wanted help against the Turks), but most of the rest did not seem to have a practical purpose.

I think that similar comments can be made about the Hashshashin in Islam, the Shia/Sunni split etc.

Regarding political misuse of religion, this was and is rife in each of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. As you know very well this is a direct violation of one of the 10 commandments, to which each of these religions subscribes:

"You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name." (Exodus 20:7)

"Do not subject God's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people." (Qur'an 2:224)
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mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40

Pope Urban II summoned his listeners to form themselves, rich and poor alike, into an army, which God would assist. Killing each other at home would give way to fighting a holy war. Poverty at home would be relieved by riches obtained from the East. If a man were killed doing the work of God, he would automatically be absolved of his sins and assured of salvation.

The crusades and inquisitions served to maintain the Church in power over the state. It distracted people from their own problems at home and spurred on by fanatacism with horrific consequences.

Modern dictators use similar tactics to divert public attention from the problems they face at home. This is clearly evident in Afghanistan where they have yet to identified a purpose or desirable outcome.

Sure the crusader mentality is there as missionaries try to convert Muslims while the media tried to 'westernise' the Afghans by encouraging women to remove their veils, sing, dance and forget all codes of ethics in the pursuit of pleasure.

The poppy fields destroyed by the Taliban were again established with the assistance of the CIA and sold to neighbouring Muslim countries so that the youth can become useless members of society.

These are similar to tactics used at the time of the Prophet. They try to get the common people so absorbed in fun and sport and musical entertainment in the name of culture so that they are left with no time and sense to attend to the serious problems of life, and in their heartlessness they do not even feel what destruction they are being driven to.

At the prophets time the kufar were arranging Tale-telling parties to distract the people from the Quran. According to Ibn Abbass, Nadr bought singing girls also for this purpose. Whenever he heard that someone is coming under the prophet's influence, he would impose a singing girl on him with instruction; "Feed him and entertain him with your songs so that he is absorbed in you and distracted from the other side".

Quran 31:6 "But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (man) from the path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the path) for such there will be a humiliating penalty".

The Prophet) said: The poor of my Ummah would be he who would come on the Day of Resurrection with prayers and fasts and Zakat but (he would find himself bankrupt on that day as he would have exhausted his funds of virtues) since he hurled abuses upon others, brought calumny against others and unlawfully consumed the wealth of others and shed the blood of others and beat others, and his virtues would be credited to the account of one (who suffered at his hand). And if his good deeds fall short to clear the account, then his sins would be entered in (his account) and he would be thrown in the Hell-Fire.

mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40

Former White House press secretary Scott McClellan charges in an explosive new book that President George W. Bush used propaganda to sell the Iraq war, prompting angry rebukes from current and former Bush aides.

"In the permanent campaign era, it was all about manipulating sources of public opinion to the president's advantage," wrote McClellan, the first Bush insider to write a book criticizing his former boss and fellow Texan.

mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40

Daniel Yergin, author of "The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money and Power" argues how peak oil will have enormous global consequences. I will expand further on what I believe will be the outcome of peak oil.

It will most likely be the next crusade. Like other ancient and modern battles, the media are carefuly selected to commence the psychological war as we are now witnessing with Iran. They will carefully search and select a mentally disturbed Muslim with radical views to support their claims. Then the missionaries come and argue that it is a crusade against 'violent' heathens who want to destroy our way of life.

The military campaign is set to begin as we watch in horror a video game of 'strategic strikes' using napalm, cluster bombs and depleted uranium. Later compassion fatigue sets in so that we become accustomed to the daily terror inflicted on innocent people for the limited oil reserves.

The Christians may argue that the crusades were not about money or power. In his speech, Pope Urban II called for colonization of the Muslim world:

…..I exhort you with earnest prayer - not I, but God - that, as heralds of Christ, you urge men by frequent exhortation, men of all ranks, knights as well as foot soldiers, rich as well as poor, to hasten to exterminate this vile race from the lands of your brethren Christ commands it. And if those who set out thither should lose their lives on the way by land, or in crossing the sea, or in fighting the pagans, their sins shall be remitted.

It was only two to three centuries ago that the Christian Inquisition was still a formal policy. The Trinitarian doctrine was enforced for hundreds of years and those who pronounced alternate views were viewed as heretics. Those who are suspected of Heresy were detained in prison, evicted from the Kingdom or burnt alive.

It was enacted, "that, if any persons were suspected of heresy, the ordinary might detain them in prison till they were canonically purged, or did abjure their errors; provided always, that the proceedings against them were publicly ended within three months. If they were convicted, the Diocesan, or His Commissary, might imprison them at discretion. Those that refused to abjure their errors, or after abjuration relapsed, were to be delivered over to the secular power; and the Mayors, Sheriffs, or Bailiffs, were to be present, (if required,) when the Bishop, or his Commissary passed sentence; and after sentence they were to receive them., and burn them to death before the people."

The majority of those, who were burnt as heretics under Mary, were probably Trinitarians. Their heresy consisted in denying the Pope's supremacy; or in rejecting the doctrine of Transubstantiation; or in questioning some one or other of the peculiar dogmas of the Romish Church.

The same injustice, violence, aggression was committed against the indigenous people in lands that were colonized. Stereotyping, discrimination, rape and murder was the norm for Africans, American Indians and Aborigines. Sural al an nam, 43, their hearts became hardened and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said “Let us pray.” We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land. Desmond Tutu

It is understandably offensive when the pope of the Catholic Church said that the people who lived in South America before the Europeans arrived were “silently longing” for Christianity, welcomed the Europeans, and were “purified” by the priests who arrived. Anyone, including historians, who has looked at the evidence realizes that contrary to the Pope’s characterization, the arrival of the Europeans and their priests resulted in rape, mass murder, pillage, and enslavement.

Similarly we are told that the Iraqi people welcomed the US invasions as liberators from the oppressive regime of Sadam Hussein.

In Australia, attempts were made to assimilate the Aborigines with forced conversion to Christianity. As a result there was the stolen generation of children removed from their families in a systematic policy to “breed out their color”.

Aborigines lost their language, culture and identity. Some still live in settlements while others live in ghettos with major social problems. In fact, it was not until 1967 that a referendum was held in Australia to make it illegal to rape and kill Aborigines. Unlike Australian sheep, the Aborigines were not counted until the late sixties. Aboriginal lawyer Noel Pearson said, “We occupied the land, but we were fauna.” The racist White Australia Policy lasted until 1976.

Racism was still prevalent against Aborigines, Asians, Italians. The redneck image was still there and supported by John Howard. When John Howard came to office in 1996, his first act was to cut 400 million dollars from the Aboriginal affairs budget – which he referred to contemptuously as the ‘Aboriginal industry’. He demanded that Aboriginal communities give up even the right to negotiate land development. He declared that ‘political correctness’ had ‘gone to far’.

The ‘One Nation’ party was formed to cater for the large numbers of rednecks who are historically and culturally accustomed to racism. Pauline Hanson maintains in her book that the Aboriginal people, “killed and ate their women and children and occasionally their men”. Australia’s treatment of Aborigines has earned Australia the worst human rights abuses in a Western Country according to Amnesty International.

Muslims on the other hand are given the example in the Quran about Dhul Qarnain. During his travels, he came across ‘primitive people’. He understood their condition and left them alone. He did not exploit their land, rape, kill and enslave the people. He did not force them to follow his ‘superior’ culture, assimilate or destroy their identity.

With this cowboy mentality, it only took the Australian government one day to decide that they should support the war on Afghanistan without any credible evidence of a threat to Australia or America. With the defeat of the Taliban, they televised pornography, music and drugs became freely available in a similar attempt to destroy the culture and identity of the Afghans. Women were encouraged to remove the hijab. The poppy fields that the Taliban destroyed were now developed and sold to Muslim youth in Iran, Afghansitan, Pakistan and around the world so they the Muslim youth can become useless members of society.

The clash in attitudes was clearly apparent but in the end, the Taliban were still not defeated and the Afghan women still prefer to be covered. Truth always defeats falsehood.

We believe in honoring women by covering their hair. They claim to liberate women by exploiting them for all men to see. We believe in accountability on the day of judgement. They believe there is not accountability except for man made laws. We follow the simple and rational truth. They follow manufactured idols, desires, fantacies and conjecture. We believe there is no compulsion in religion. They believe that the means justifies the aims.

The war in Iraq is however the greatest tragedy in the history of this World. A war based on a fabricated threat from a previous loyal supporter of the U.S. The cultural war began with the destruction Baghdad’s Koranic library, the national archives and the looting of the archeological museum when the American army entered Baghdad. At least 80% of the items in the national museum of antiquities in Baghdad were stolen or destroyed during the looting rampage that followed the US military occupation of Baghdad. The museum was the greatest single storehouse of materials for the ancient civilizations. The burning of the national library contained tens of thousand of old manuscripts and books. The bombing campaign crippled the civilian infrastructure.

Nothing is more savage than the use of depleted uranium. It has a half life of 4.5 billion years and results in countless children with congenital deformities and various forms of cancers. When a tank fired its shells, each round carried over 4.5 kgs of solid uranium 238 sometimes mixed with plutonium. Approximately 300 tons were filed in Gulf war 1. The World Health Organisation, wrote in the British Medical Journal: ‘Requested radiotherapy equipment, chemotherapy drugs and analgesics (needed for the treatment of cancer) are consistently blocked by the United States and British Advisers.’ The psychological impact on the Iraqi people can never be measured. The senseless murder and violence has occurred as a direct consequence of interference by Western Countries and paid assassins. Meanwhile billions of barrels of oil are disappearing through pipelines going to Haifa and multinational companies.

On the background of these unjust wars is regular propaganda blaming the victims. Islamaphobia promoted by Zionist controlled media is used to justify the horrendous crimes against the Palestinian and other Muslims. The Israeli war machine is cheered on by John Howard who is known to have well entrenched hatred against other cultures.

Unlike other faiths, Muslims have not turned a blind eye to the lies, corruption and oppression. Muslims rely on methods of propagation according to the principles outline by our Prophet. This involved justice, human rights, brotherhood and kindness.

The Muslims would inform people of the beauty and rationality of Islam compared to other irrational and invented beliefs in the best possible way. It is no wonder that those who were previously enemies of the Muslims converted to Islam. Even the Mongols converted to Islam after conquering Muslim land and destroying everything in their path. Their descendants established the Moghul empire which ruled India for centuries.

The Prophet Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam said: “The most perfect believer is the most educated one in morality.”

misterno · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective

I as a muslim sometimes wonder;

Is it just a coincidence that the cities that is the birth place to Islam is the same with the home of the most precious material in the world, the substance that gave birth to civilisation and mankind?

What are the odds of such a coincidence happening? Such a tiny country has %57 of all oil reserves in the world happens to be where Islam starts and home to Koran and sacred two cities. Does this tell us something?

Just thinking loud here...

3aidlillahi · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective

misterno · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: peak oil - Muslim Perspective

The whole modern world-civilisation is a result of oil.

Without oil, there would not be any cities with skyscrapers, no airlines no modern agriculture and no cars.

mass · Tar Sands Joined: May 20, 2008 Posts: 40