Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
socrates1fan wrote:
First of all, not every American can afford to eat at McDonald's everyday.
That is a sick stereotype that ALL Americans are fat and rich.
A major portion of the population can barely afford to put food on the table.
I don't dispute that not everyone can afford to eat at McDonald's everyday. But that's no an impediment to forwarding my position for two reasons... one, it's untrue of the vast, vast majority of the people of the United States. Even those living in technical poverty can afford to eat at such places; indeed, it's often their principal means of acquiring affordable food. I've been to Denny's, and I know that a person could live for a day simply on what's offered in the Grand Slam breakfast for a half a sawbuck or less.
Two, and relatedly, the issue of starving people in the US is not a function of a deficit of available calories. It's a deficit of good will of the people to make them available. Remember when the Gipper made ketchup a "vegetable"? I do. How many B1 bombers (or a fraction thereof) do you suppose taking carrots out of the diets of a couple of millions kids bought the United States? The food's there. The money's there. The will to distribute it in the best interests of the people is not.
socrates1fan wrote:
No, if my parents arrived in America from Germany illegally in the year 2008 and I was born I would still believe I have no right to the land. No matter how bad Germany was I would have to return.
So go. Why stand on ceremony, just because the arrival is conveniently backdated? Off you go; auf wiedersehen.
But suppose your parents hail from a country where jus soli is the law, and if you're not born there, you're not a citizen. But you've just been born in your future, perfect, hermetically-sealed-against-outlanders USA, where your birth grants you no citizenship. Who are you? You're not a citizen of the US, and you're not a citizen of your parents' homeland. You're stateless. There is nowhere on Earth you can legally call your home, work, live, depend on for protection. Do you not find that a blood-chilling idea? In my opinion, a state that denies the simple human right of having a home to the people born within it is not a fully civilized nation, and sadly, that finger can be pointed at much of Europe.
socrates1fan wrote:
You arguement is that America should pretty much just accept everyone.
No. My point is that anyone born in the United States is, and ought to continue to be, its citizen. It's not like the baby broke the law. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
coyote wrote:
I appreciate and applaud your sense of humanity and history, sincerely. But the reality on the ground here is that we are getting damn overcrowded. Our nation badly needs zero population growth
Those are legitimate concerns, but I'm not talking about throwing the doors open. What I'm talking about is continuing the right of citizenship by jus soli in the United States... that is, if you're born there, you're a citizen. That's a whole different matter from controlling immigration or deporting illegal arrivals.
You're talking about practicalities. Fair enough. Let's face facts. People are born in the United States to people who are not citizens. Some are there legally, many many are not. In denying these children citizenship, what are you creating? A class of people who are not citizens, living among you. Their children, too, are not citizens. Generation after generation after growing generation of people who have no hope for a legal job, advancement, a voice in government... a hopeless underclass, forever. Preyed upon by others; turning to crime to support themselves. An ever larger tumor in the body of the nation. Really... is it so bad that such people become citizens, and have a shot at something better? Or at least, hope that their children will?
I'm not arguing for unbridled immigration. Only for the right of people born in the United States, by whatever means they find themselves there, to consider it their home, their country. The alternative is ugly, frightening, and hopeless, and in the long run will brutalize the US further and probably steepen the slide to authoritarianism as measure upon measure is formulated to deal with this new "problem" that does not, as yet, even exist. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Nickel wrote:
But suppose your parents hail from a country where jus soli is the law, and if you're not born there, you're not a citizen. But you've just been born in your future, perfect, hermetically-sealed-against-outlanders USA, where your birth grants you no citizenship. Who are you? You're not a citizen of the US, and you're not a citizen of your parents' homeland. You're stateless. There is nowhere on Earth you can legally call your home, work, live, depend on for protection. Do you not find that a blood-chilling idea?
There are millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of people who do not have any citizenship. So what? lets get them all to US?
Every American has 7.5 hypothetical acres. He can grow food on 1.3 of them presently, and this little piece of land is shrinking every year due to urbanisation , pollution, soil depletion. 6.2 acres are occupied by rocks, sand, ice, houses/barns/ asphalt, nuclear facilities and some forests with some leftovers of wildlife.
When a new immigrant comes, legal or illegal, or whomever makes a baby here, he is getting his 7.5 hypothetical acres. Since USA is not made of rubber ( surprise here ) they come out of present people's share. Everyone in this country is losing about 1/5 of a sq inch of his lot with every new immigrant/locally born baby. This year, it will come up to 3000 sq ft. Next year, more, and the year after that, even more. Where will you cut it from?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Pretorian wrote:
There are millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of people who do not have any citizenship. So what? lets get them all to US?
I'm talking about people born IN the United States. I'm talking about not being herded by fear into changing a law that has always been, and hopefully always will be, on the of the chief redeeming features of the country.
Pretorian wrote:
Every American has 7.5 hypothetical acres...
When a new immigrant comes, legal or illegal, or whomever makes a baby here, he is getting his 7.5 hypothetical acres...
I'm not talking about the population pressures; that's a whole different issue. How you want to deal with that is another matter... getting right-wing heads out of right-wing asses on matters like abortion and sex education might be a start, rather than eroding citizenship rights.
Worry all you want about your 7.5 acres or whatever; it has nothing to do with the fact that people are going to be born in the United States. The question is: do you want them to be born as citizens with a stake in the country and its future and a feeling of attachment and allegiance to it, or a permanent class of foreigners living in it and forever at odds with the only home they've ever known? Denying citizenship rights will not prevent a single birth; people come for the economic opportunity and the children they have are simply an integral part of their lives. So one way or the other, these people will be born. The question is, to what status, citizen or serf? _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4983 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Nickel wrote:
The question is, to what status, citizen or serf?
This isn't complex at all. The entire world is on the same page on this issue, except the US, Canada, Australia, and some European nations and a scattering of others. Here's the way it's done:
How about the kid adopts the same status as their parents. That's how almost all other countries do it.
Basically, a child born to a foreigner adopts the citizenship of the foreign visitor. If the visitor is a 'tourist' the child must leave when the parents period of admission terminates. Illegal parents? Then they must leave immediately. 'HiB? They must leave when the period of their parents admission ends. Simple. Logical. Common sense. That's why it'll never happen in the US or Canada. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 109 Location: Old Dominion
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Pretorian wrote:
ORCA wrote:
Nickel wrote:
ORCA wrote:
Another dumb law that should be halted until repeal is allowing anyone from anywhere under any circumstances that squirts out an infant here, that baby is now an American citizen. What crap is
THAT?
Pray tell, from what does YOUR claim to citizenship spring from...?
My family have been in this country legally since before there was a United States of America. How about you?
You had about 1000 ancestors in 1775, unless incest is a normal thing in your family. All of them were here back then?
ps Not that I disagree with you on citizenshp issues, but that coldwar story is a crock of crap. did you come up to it yourself or took it from somone else?
That just doesn't make sense. If I only have ONE ancestor here in 1775, that would have been enough (have someone explain about reproduction to you)
Regarding the law and automatic citizenship, the Fourth Amendant was very clear on it - children born of forgieners, aleins, etc. while here in the U.S.A. were not citizens.
While tinkered with, the premise remains much the same, AND, this loophole WAS used during the coldwar to the glee of many of those in the administration of the State Dept.
It was never intended, however, that some forgien national, after having invaded our soverienty illegally, be able to squirt a kid out while in a bean field and that child now be a U.S. citizen.
Mark me well, when daily life gets tough for the real citizens here, those here illegally will be forced out. Its already beginning. _________________ "If everything is going well, you obviously overlooked something."
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
ORCA wrote:
That just doesn't make sense. If I only have ONE ancestor here in 1775, that would have been enough (have someone explain about reproduction to you)
Yeah, but anybody living 200 years from now will be able to say the very same thing about the people you're currently trying to disenfranchise.
ORCA wrote:
Regarding the law and automatic citizenship, the Fourth Amendant was very clear on it - children born of forgieners, aleins, etc. while here in the U.S.A. were not citizens.
I think you mean the Fourteenth Amendment; the Fourth is about unreasonable search and seizure.
As for the Fourteenth, you're right; it is very clear on the subject... but you've got it ass backwards, I'm afraid. It says:
Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
ORCA wrote:
It was never intended, however, that some forgien national, after having invaded our soverienty illegally, be able to squirt a kid out while in a bean field and that child now be a U.S. citizen.
No, you're right; initially, its intent was to prevent racist bigots from denying blacks their rights simply because they were different. However, it's phrased such that it also applies to "all persons born in the United States".
ORCA wrote:
Mark me well, when daily life gets tough for the real citizens here, those here illegally will be forced out. Its already beginning.
No citizen is there "illegally". That, in fact, is at the very heart of the matter. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
eastbay wrote:
This isn't complex at all. The entire world is on the same page on this issue, except the US, Canada, Australia, and some European nations and a scattering of others.
Actually, jus soli is standard pretty much throughout the American hemisphere. According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
States and territories that observe jus soli include:
* American Samoa[
* Antigua and Barbuda
* Argentina
* Azerbaijan[4]
* Barbados
* Belize
* Bolivia
* Brazil
* Canada
* Chile[5] (children of transient foreigners and of foreign diplomats on assignment in Chile only upon request)
* Colombia
* Dominica
* Dominican Republic
* Ecuador
* El Salvador
* Fiji[6]
* Grenada
* Guatemala
* Guyana
* Honduras
* Jamaica
* Lesotho[7]
* Mexico
* Nicaragua
* Pakistan
* Panama
* Paraguay
* Peru
* Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic[8]
* Saint Christopher and Nevis
* Saint Lucia
* Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
* Trinidad and Tobago
* Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus
* Tuvalu[9]
* United States
* Uruguay
* Venezuela
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 109 Location: Old Dominion
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Nickel wrote:
ORCA wrote:
The Lenope had no concept of land "ownership"
Oh, that's a pretty excuse. So in your estimation, anyone who doesn't share the same societal and legalistic preconceptions as you is game to have their property stolen? Well, fine... it seems to me that the Mexicans crossing the border illegally are in that position, so fair's fair... what was the Lenopes' became yours becomes theirs.
At the bottom of it all, my point is that no one has a right to get on their high horse about this... even if that horse trotted off the Mayflower. Every modern government in the Americas was founded by force, force applied by Europeans. Even the most peaceful of foundings were quietly underwritten by it. The people who come to our shores now do so nowhere near as violently as those who founded the societies we claim are now under assault. My point is, we created the rules that said "if you're born here, you're a citizen" to suit ourselves in the face of those here before us; to secure ourselves to the soil. I think it's the height of self-serving hypocrisy to turn that system around and deny it to people born in these countries of parents from abroad, who themselves ask nothing more of us than the home the rest of us born here claim, when it was the very foundation of our societies in the first place.
I'm entirely in favour of seeing to it that people immigrate legally. But a child born here is no threat, no criminal, no usurper. He or she is one of us, by our own rules and definition. I can't respect the idea of changing that.
And you, and I, and all the rest of us will pay from our pockets to provide that child with an education (such as it is), medical care, food, clothes, etc. until they reach adulthood and have more children we'll have to raise in the same fashion. No thanks!
Manifest Destiny - ever heard of it? From the Atlantic to the Pacifc, our ancestors were passionate about subdueing this continent and they did. More people were needed to populate it and work. So, "Give me your tired, your poor, your hungrey..." and they came from around throughout Europe, from around the world. But we cannot continue to allow more entry into the country, especially illegal entry, by poor, uneducated people who only want what we have, not our culture. In the meantime, the cost to everyone of us woh pay taxes continues to rise through the overwheming illegal use of our social programs, our schools, our medical facilities...
The final straw is seeing hordes of these criminals marching through an American City's street while waving a forgien flag and demanding "rights".
ALL immigration should be put in the parking lot for awhile while we sort this all out, and go about removing these millions of mestizos here illegally, by force if necessary. _________________ "If everything is going well, you obviously overlooked something."
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 109 Location: Old Dominion
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Nickel wrote:
ORCA wrote:
That just doesn't make sense. If I only have ONE ancestor here in 1775, that would have been enough (have someone explain about reproduction to you)
Yeah, but anybody living 200 years from now will be able to say the very same thing about the people you're currently trying to disenfranchise.
ORCA wrote:
Regarding the law and automatic citizenship, the Fourth Amendant was very clear on it - children born of forgieners, aleins, etc. while here in the U.S.A. were not citizens.
I think you mean the Fourteenth Amendment; the Fourth is about unreasonable search and seizure.
As for the Fourteenth, you're right; it is very clear on the subject... but you've got it ass backwards, I'm afraid. It says:
Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
ORCA wrote:
It was never intended, however, that some forgien national, after having invaded our soverienty illegally, be able to squirt a kid out while in a bean field and that child now be a U.S. citizen.
No, you're right; initially, its intent was to prevent racist bigots from denying blacks their rights simply because they were different. However, it's phrased such that it also applies to "all persons born in the United States".
ORCA wrote:
Mark me well, when daily life gets tough for the real citizens here, those here illegally will be forced out. Its already beginning.
No citizen is there "illegally". That, in fact, is at the very heart of the matter.
Yes, I did mean the Fourteenth. My mistske.
And I agee that a citizen cannot be here illegally. But, a non-citizen can, and are...by the millions. _________________ "If everything is going well, you obviously overlooked something."
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4983 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
Great reference on jus soli. It looks like about 90% of the world is on the same page disallowing citizenship to children born to foreign visitors. I bet 95+% of the citizenships handed out to foreign visitors occur in the US and Canada.
UK, Ireland, France, and a few others in Europe -plus Australia- offer modified versions which basically have the effect of allowing the kids to remain indefinitely and eventually gain citizenship.
Notice India reversed their jus soli law? Maybe they thought 1.3 billion was enough. _________________ Got Dharma?
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
ORCA wrote:
Pretorian wrote:
ORCA wrote:
Nickel wrote:
ORCA wrote:
Another dumb law that should be halted until repeal is allowing anyone from anywhere under any circumstances that squirts out an infant here, that baby is now an American citizen. What crap is
THAT?
Pray tell, from what does YOUR claim to citizenship spring from...?
My family have been in this country legally since before there was a United States of America. How about you?
You had about 1000 ancestors in 1775, unless incest is a normal thing in your family. All of them were here back then?
ps Not that I disagree with you on citizenshp issues, but that coldwar story is a crock of crap. did you come up to it yourself or took it from somone else?
That just doesn't make sense. If I only have ONE ancestor here in 1775, that would have been enough (have someone explain about reproduction to you)
Have YOU had it explained already? I am just curious.
The above link is in favor of letting invaders over-run Ireland, so it's provided for informational purposes. My point is that 80% of the Irish are racist, which makes me quite proud.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1614 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Any Americans still pro-immigration?
ORCA wrote:
And you, and I, and all the rest of us will pay from our pockets to provide that child with an education (such as it is), medical care, food, clothes, etc. until they reach adulthood and have more children we'll have to raise in the same fashion. No thanks!
That's true of any child in a society. What difference does it, or did it ever, make as to where the parents came from?
ORCA wrote:
Manifest Destiny - ever heard of it?
Yes, we managed to avoid being subsumed by it a number of times.
ORCA wrote:
But we cannot continue to allow more entry into the country, especially illegal entry, by poor, uneducated people who only want what we have, not our culture.
You're still talking about the parents. I'm talking about the people born in the United States. The ones who are citizens from birth, and should continue to be.
ORCA wrote:
The final straw is seeing hordes of these criminals marching through an American City's street while waving a forgien flag and demanding "rights".
First of all, who are you talking about when you evoke "criminals"? Secondly, when and where have you ever seen this?
ORCA wrote:
ALL immigration should be put in the parking lot for awhile while we sort this all out, and go about removing these millions of mestizos here illegally, by force if necessary.
Again, I'm not talking about immigrants, or people in the US illegally per se. I'm talking about not visiting those sins on their children, who ARE the citizens of the United States, by law. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
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