I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Never NEVER trust Russians, the people, the state.
Winston Churchill's quotation, made in a radio broadcast in October 1939:
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
GASMON wrote:
Never NEVER trust Russians, the people, the state.
Winston Churchill's quotation, made in a radio broadcast in October 1939:
"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Trade with them, BUT DO NOT depend on them.
Gasmon
Yes, I believe that's what the Indians said of you guys, after Churchill's quotation after the Second World War (you know, the great struggle for the right of nations to self-determination?) when he waved off their demands for that same right with:
"I have not become the King's first minister in order to preside over the liquidation of the British Empire."
So Churchill didn't know what Russia would do, but he knew what'd he do: deny the right to self-determination to anyone less white than him. Didn't see it as in his national interest, apparently. Now does he speak for you in that, too? Or would you like to find some less-impeachable sources to buttress your case for denying the Russians the right to honestly enjoy the advantages that are finally accruing to them? _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
Or would you like to find some less-impeachable sources to buttress your case for denying the Russians the right to honestly enjoy the advantages that are finally accruing to them?
Just read a new thread, here on peak oil re russians recommencing bomber operations over (well, near to) Alaska. Sabre rattling. Fly over north sea too, baiting the RAF.
Russians, can't trust them - read my posted BBC threads. BTW where did these Russian multi-millionaires get steal their money from ? - Oil & Gas of course. The wealth is not doing the proliteriat mutch good, is it?.
BTW a recent poll in the UK was held for the greatest Briton of all time. Churchill came in at number 2 - so evidently very much highly respected here. Number 1 was Isambard Kingdom Brunel - Engineer.
I wish we had their kind around now, men of vision & action. Brunel would sort peak oil out in his spare time. All we have now is fancy talkers.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1723 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Churchill spoke eloquently about how debt was a far better weapon against rowdy natives than the Gestapo or the state-capitalists in the Soviet Union’s KGB.
Debt would allow “great men” to reach their destiny without insufferable wretches, the public, getting in their way. Institutionalize debt internationally and it would also allow great nations to rule quietly and with Adam Smith’s “silent hand.” “Or else we should be forever trapped within our mansions.” said Churchill.
Joined: Apr 08, 2006 Posts: 1442 Location: Somewhere there
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Was it Bismark who said that treatiies with Russian aren't worth paper they are written on? Too bad Hitler didn't googled it before invading France and co.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
GASMON wrote:
Just read a new thread, here on peak oil re russians recommencing bomber operations over (well, near to) Alaska. Sabre rattling. Fly over north sea too, baiting the RAF
I posted something along that line a couple of weeks ago. That's just the point. The Russians gave up on that stuff back at the start of the 90s. If we hadn't treated them like inconsequential serfs in the meantime, jammed NATO up to their doorstep, and threatened to bomb Mars every time someone in the Middle East lifted their heads, they probably would never have had a reason to resume overflights and flex their muscle. But given how we squandered the peace dividend on polishing our clusters, I can't blame them. But you want to say WE can't trust THEM.
GASMON wrote:
The wealth is not doing the proliteriat mutch good, is it?.
I get the distinct impression the average Russian's doing a lot better now than he was ten years ago, or even five years ago. The industry I'm in used to be full of them. Not so much now. They're either not coming over anymore, or even heading home.
Quote:
Under the Putin administration, Russia's economy saw the nominal Gross Domestic Product (GDP) increase 6 fold (this figure is not adjusted for inflation), climbing from 22nd to 10th largest in the world. The economy made real gains of an average 7% per year (2000: 10%, 2001: 5.7%, 2002: 4.9%, 2003: 7.3%, 2004: 7.1%, 2005: 6.5%, 2006: 6.7%, 2007: 8.1%), making it the 7th largest economy in the world in purchasing power. In 2007, Russia's GDP exceeded that of 1990, meaning it has overcome the devastating consequences of the 1998 financial crisis and preceding recession in the 1990s.
During Putin's eight years in office, industry grew by 75%, investments increased by 125%, and agricultural production and construction increased as well. Real incomes more than doubled and the average salary increased eightfold from $80 to $640. The volume of consumer credit between 2000–2006 increased 45 times, and during that same time period, the middle class grew from 8 million to 55 million, an increase of 7 times. The number of people living below the poverty line also decreased from 30% in 2000 to 14% in 2008.
GASMON wrote:
Churchill came in at number 2 - so evidently very much highly respected here.
True, he didn't start many salt riots in Britain, or force the British to carry proof of identity cards in their own country, or crack skulls because the British wanted to have their government and international sovereignty. He did help out on that last point in Ireland, though. They're handy; why don't you give them a ring, see how his standing is 150 miles west of Liverpool? _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
Real incomes more than doubled and the average salary increased eightfold from $80 to $640. The volume of consumer credit between 2000–2006 increased 45 times, and during that same time period, the middle class grew from 8 million to 55 million, an increase of 7 times. The number of people living below the poverty line also decreased from 30% in 2000 to 14% in 2008.
GASMON wrote:
Churchill came in at number 2 - so evidently very much highly respected here.
Nickel wrote:
True, he didn't start many salt riots in Britain, or force the British to carry proof of identity cards in their own country, or crack skulls because the British wanted to have their government and international sovereignty. He did help out on that last point in Ireland, though. They're handy; why don't you give them a ring, see how his standing is 150 miles west of Liverpool?
Like it or lump it, Churchill is a national hero in the UK.
55 million "middle class" on $640 dollars - even if that is per week its not alot, by western standards anyway. London is awash with Russian millionaires, Abramovich etc. Why dont THEY want to live in Russia, if its so good.
BTW Ireland was "Neutral" in WW2, so I couldn't give a toss what they think. (Nothing against the Irish folk, have Irish friends & work with them). I don't know any Russians, probably general folk O.K as most ordinary folk are, worldwide - As usual its the politics that stink, turning people against people. And Russian politics STINKS.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
GASMON wrote:
Like it or lump it, Churchill is a national hero in the UK.
Like it or lump it, that doesn't qualify him as God on Russia in 2008, especially since he's been dead since before most of us were born.
GASMON wrote:
55 million "middle class" on $640 dollars - even if that is per week its not alot, by western standards anyway. London is awash with Russian millionaires, Abramovich etc. Why dont THEY want to live in Russia, if its so good.
Remind me to ask the limies I work with the same question about the UK. The point is: so much for your blithe notions that Russia's not improving the lot of the common people.
GASMON wrote:
BTW Ireland was "Neutral" in WW2, so I couldn't give a toss what they think.
Or anyone else who might disprove your suggestion that Churchill walked on water and thus must have seen into the 4th dimension where Russia was concerned, I would imagine. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
GASMON wrote:
Like it or lump it, Churchill is a national hero in the UK.
Like it or lump it, that doesn't qualify him as God on Russia in 2008, especially since he's been dead since before most of us were born.
GASMON wrote:
55 million "middle class" on $640 dollars - even if that is per week its not alot, by western standards anyway. London is awash with Russian millionaires, Abramovich etc. Why dont THEY want to live in Russia, if its so good.
Remind me to ask the limies I work with the same question about the UK. The point is: so much for your blithe notions that Russia's not improving the lot of the common people.
GASMON wrote:
BTW Ireland was "Neutral" in WW2, so I couldn't give a toss what they think.
Or anyone else who might disprove your suggestion that Churchill walked on water and thus must have seen into the 4th dimension where Russia was concerned, I would imagine.
If Russia is so good and the US is so bad, move. It is, now, a free country, and you can go there and bask in the twilite of the world. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
vetusfirma wrote:
If Russia is so good and the US is so bad, move. It is, now, a free country, and you can go there and bask in the twilite of the world.
Well, first of all, I don't live in the US. If I did, I'd be tempted to move. But I'm already where I'd want to end up anyway. Thanks for the advice, though.
Secondly, why is it all black and white with you guys? What, it's impossible for someone to lower the contrast and get to see it ain't all rose gardens here and devils with pitchforks everywhere else? Things have gotten better in Russia. And the fact that they're standing up for themselves and attending to their own interests does not automatically equate to them digging up Stalin and parading him like a saint through the streets. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
GASMON wrote:
'nuff said. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I beleive you yanks only use one finger !!).
Famously he remarked to a woman who accused him of being drunk that she was ugly, and that while he would be sober in he morning, she would still be ugly.
Sadly, this photo demonstrates either Winnie was dyslexic, or else his boast wasn't true EVERY morning.
And for the record, "Yanks" are the North Americans who WEREN'T on Britain's side in the American Revolution or the War of 1812, and who showed up late for both world wars. Ah, how soon they forget. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
And the fact that they're standing up for themselves and attending to their own interests does not automatically equate to them digging up Stalin and parading him like a saint through the streets.
No, but concerning the way they treat Chechnya and other suspect elements from the Caucasus (there have been cases where the government has incited racially charged anti-Caucasian riots), as well as silencing their own government critics, "attending to their own interests" sounds pretty euphemistic.
I have absolutely no hatred or even disrespect for ordinary Russians. But I'm perplexed by all this "admiration from afar" which is seen as a noble opposite to alleged flag-waving pro-US bias. The Russians have a great culture but they have also inflicted great pain on other people (and their own) during both Czarist and communist eras. There's a valid reason why many in East Europe want to protect themselves from Russia, even if it was unwise from a macro-geopolitical perspective. _________________ "The progress of civilization:
bondage --> spiritual faith --> courage --> liberty --> abundance --> complacency --> apathy --> dependence --> bondage." - Alexander Tyler
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
The Russians gave up on that stuff back at the start of the 90s.
Actually they gave it up only because they couldn't keep it up. Was too expensive for them at that point.
Quote:
If we hadn't treated them like inconsequential serfs in the meantime, jammed NATO up to their doorstep, and threatened to bomb Mars every time someone in the Middle East lifted their heads, they probably would never have had a reason to resume overflights and flex their muscle.
Russia treated and continues to treat other nations like inconsequential serfs, thank you very much. Ask an Eastern European, Georgian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Belarussian etc next time and they'll tell you just how Russia behaved and behaves towards their countries. Been going on for 300 years under the names of the Russian Empire, Soviet Union, Russian federation etc -- all different descriptions of the same crass Russian imperialism.
NATO expansion wasn't pushed for by the West but by Central and Eastern Europeans. If you check recent history, you will see that Western Europe as well as the US repeatedly hesitated to enlarge NATO to the great anger and disappointment of Central and Eastern Europe. This story is being repeated as we speak with Germany and France blocking the MAP (NATO Membership Action Program) for Georgia and Ukraine, both of whom want to join NATO much more than NATO wants to receive them. Hint: As in the past, NATO is afraid of alienating Russia. So get your story straight.
Also for your information, NATO membership is an issue to be discussed between NATO and a sovereign state (such as Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Georgia etc) and is none of Russia's business. Your position is imperialistic and chauvinistic, in that you fail to consider the opinion of the NATO applicants themselves.
So Russia doesn't like what these countries want to do with their destinies ? Well, tough. Get over it.
The Russians have a history of threatening to bomb not Mars but their neighbors every time someone in the Russian Near Abroad as much raises their head. That's quite similar to US behavior, thank you very much.
Quote:
But given how we squandered the peace dividend on polishing our clusters, I can't blame them. But you want to say WE can't trust THEM.
Me and many others can and do blame them not for what the US does but for what they (the Russians) do and did. And rest assured that they will be held fully accountable for their horrendous and extensive crimes. The hundreds of millions of descendants of their victims are quite determined to do so.
Quote:
...During Putin's eight years in office, industry grew by 75%, investments increased by 125% ...
And Putin is to be credited with this ?
That murderous KGB pedophile is your hero ?!? _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:11 pm; edited 8 times in total
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Russian gas monopolies could turn back on Europe
Nickel wrote:
Secondly, why is it all black and white with you guys? What, it's impossible for someone to lower the contrast and get to see it ain't all rose gardens here and devils with pitchforks everywhere else? Things have gotten better in Russia. And the fact that they're standing up for themselves and attending to their own interests does not automatically equate to them digging up Stalin and parading him like a saint through the streets.
What's really annoying Nickel, is how naive Canadian left wingers have become about Russia, apparently as a result of their anger with the US.
Russia ain't the savior of mankind, but the last true multinational empire and the country most hated and despised by its neighbors up to third degree in the entire world. There are good reasons for that anger.
Apparently your ideological blinders condition you into parroting the Pravda line about great mother Russia, also known among its neighbors as the miserable daughter of Babylon.
] _________________ only the paranoid survive
Last edited by btu2012 on Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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