Oil's energy contribution has declined by about 12% since 1999. The world's economies have also declined by about 12%. (Using conventional metrics, which are time delayed determinations, this will only be seen in hind sight). The massive destruction of asset values now occurring testifies to it happening.
Peak is well behind us, world economies have peaked and will continue to decline.
Joined: Oct 24, 2006 Posts: 121 Location: Pacific Northwest
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
First off, if you think you can just wake up tomorrow and start subsistence farming - you will be in for a rude awakening. Even if you have done successful traditional summer time gardens in the past - eating only from the garden is quite a different matter.
Second, it CAN be done though on large surburban plots if the conditions (sun and soil) are reasonable. For those in apartments and stacked (densely zoned urban areas) - no chance.
Third, you have to plan (constantly) and plant and grow (constantly) such that you have higher caloric crops - potatoes, sweet potatoes, dried beans, winter squash, carrots, parsnips, and if you have the room - grains. If you do not have room for grains - pray that you have a farmer nearby with a large enough field to grow grain for those others in the community that are willing to trade other grown products or services. Otherwise, you CAN survive without a grain based diet. Potatoes are one of the most caloric dense and easy to grow diet staples the homegardener can grow. It takes lot of them to feed a family through the entire year though - and again it takes planning and good soil/garden management to keep diseases from entering your garden and killing off your vital food sources.
If you (like I do) believe this is an integral part of surviving in a post peak oil world.... start depending your garden NOW with significantly less inputs from other sources. It's a very rewarding undertaking and if you fail (for the time being) you have other options available to you so it is not a life or death situation. But, if you ACT as if those other options are not available (or very limited) it forces you to do this hard work and get your skills and system in place BEFORE you will really need them (possible life or death situation).
We are 100% self sufficient on vegetables from our garden. About 40% on fruits and increasing that each year. We purchase grains in bulk and store them - have six years of grain in reserves for our normal useage levels - about three if we had to lean on it really hard for some reason. We still buy dairy, meat, and eggs from local sources. Have dried whole eggs and dried milk in storage that we use in baking but have enough in storage that we could live on it for a year without the fresh food purchases. If not available in the future we would rely on more trade/barter and hunting/gathering to supplement additional animal proteins and fat in to the diet.
It's hard work - more than most people want to deal with and work outside of the home etc. But it can be a rewarding "hobby" that may have even greater rewards in the future.
The question then is.... do you have the fire within you to do this much work now when it is not "necessary"? Or will you just dabble at it and hope all will end well?
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3626 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
Ludi wrote:
TheDude wrote:
we can't let the existing mass agriculture system falter,
Very little has ever been done to protect farmers from failure. They have been allowed to go bankrupt and lose their farms steadily until now only about 2% of the population are farmers. Why would this steady trend of neglect change when times get tough?
Because times will be tough. With fuel shortages going on I'd for damn sure be on the phone to my Congresspeople telling them I wanted rations set aside for farmers - assuming the phone worked, of course...
Looking at census data, there are about 50 million apartments, duplexes and condos in the US, contrasted with 77 million detached houses (and almost 15 million unoccupied residences!). Whatever the total number of those apartment dwellers is, it's a lot of mouths to feed, and they don't have 4000 sq ft to work with.
I by no means was saying that people shouldn't veggie garden if they have the means, just that having plans on the board to assist farmers will be crucial. Also, as crisis management I bet it would be something you could get a city council behind, whereas convincing an urban population that food shortages are on the way and they need to start hoeing is a bit of a long shot. Planning is vital, as the Cuba experience demonstrates. _________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
C'mon man, who're you gonna believe?
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
TheDude wrote:
just that having plans on the board to assist farmers will be crucial.
That's great. I wish I could be so optimistic to think such plans will be "on the board." Nobody has given a rat's ass about farmers before, I don't expect them to begin now.
_________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: May 24, 2008 Posts: 75 Location: 12th dimension
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
Ludi wrote:
hardtootell wrote:
By my estimates a family of 4 would need minimum 1-3 acres
Read "One Circle" - you may find you need much less, actually about 4000 square feet per person.
Ok Ludi
I will try to get that book. I still have to respectfully disagree though. Where I live, the weather does not allow a long growing season. I estimate a million calories per person per yr and I would plant extra. I would assume that hail, floods, insects, plant diseases, vermits could easily take 1 crop in 4...
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
hardtootell wrote:
Ok Ludi
I will try to get that book. I still have to respectfully disagree though. Where I live, the weather does not allow a long growing season. I estimate a million calories per person per yr and I would plant extra. I would assume that hail, floods, insects, plant diseases, vermits could easily take 1 crop in 4...
That's fine, you should do whatever makes you feel the most secure. If you feel you need to cultivate 1 - 3 acres per person, you should do that.
Personally, I would not be able to care for that much cultivated land. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: May 24, 2008 Posts: 75 Location: 12th dimension
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
hardtootell wrote:
Great discussion
I did some calcs and realized there is no way to turn my suburban home into a garden large enough for what we need. By my estimates a family of 4 would need minimum 1-3 acres (44000-132000) to supply enough calories and provide required excess and reseeding material.
Ludi
I think I have been misquoted . I said 1-3 acres for a family of 4, NOT 1-3 acres per person. See above
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
It is very easy growing sufficient greens,
a bit harder growing sufficient roots and tomatos and the like. But growing sufficient starch in a suburban garden is nearly impossible.
Especially as most garden writers have a really big plot people usually don't have.
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1476 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
DoubleD wrote:
We are 100% self sufficient on vegetables from our garden. About 40% on fruits and increasing that each year.
Man, this makes me wish I was back at my house in CA. That's how we were, before we had to move.
Actually, it was more like 100% fruits (figs, pomegranates, grapes, lemons, oranges, mulberries) and 60% veggies (peas, green beans, corn, carrots). We still bought things like rice, bread, potatoes, etc. And of course, meat and dairy.
But this was on one of those teeny southern CA lots. I think we might have had 1/8 acre, and didn't use most of it. Dwarf fruit trees are the way to go.
Now I have more (8/10 acre) land but it's taking me a while to get used to the weather here.
If you're reading this and haven't started gardening yet I BEG YOU to get started. It takes a long time to get a garden going, even if you're experienced at it. Do not procrastinate any longer! _________________ Conservation is conservative
It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change. -- Charles Darwin
Joined: May 24, 2008 Posts: 75 Location: 12th dimension
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
I have an idea that may help some.
I have a chunk-o-land out in the boonies that I plan to farm. My "neighboring" property is clearcut and unoccupied. Once I get my small farm underway, I will plant ajoining portions with things like Jeruselum artichokes, rhubarb, rasberrys, blackberrys, wheat and just let them be wild. The deer will probably get most of it, but it could be a valuable source of nutrients if my crops fail. Also, I'll know where to hunt for deer...
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13191 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
hardtootell wrote:
I have an idea that may help some.
I have a chunk-o-land out in the boonies that I plan to farm. My "neighboring" property is clearcut and unoccupied. Once I get my small farm underway, I will plant ajoining portions with things like Jeruselum artichokes, rhubarb, rasberrys, blackberrys, wheat and just let them be wild. The deer will probably get most of it, but it could be a valuable source of nutrients if my crops fail. Also, I'll know where to hunt for deer...
See "permaculture." _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
DoubleD wrote:
First off, if you think you can just wake up tomorrow and start subsistence farming - you will be in for a rude awakening. Even if you have done successful traditional summer time gardens in the past - eating only from the garden is quite a different matter..
DD,
How many years have you been vegetable gardening and when/why did you decide to becsome a subsistence gardener/farmer?
I've gardened for years, focusing mainly on native plants. I only dabbled in veggie gardening but grew up in a household where we depended on the garden (we were very poor). I only started edible gardening a few years ago. I read everything that I can about gardening but have I ever made mistakes!
Like you and others have mentioned, there would be no way I could depend on my current skills to put all our vegetable food on the table. This is the first year I've planted anything at all from seed. What a learning experience!
I know that a greenhouse is a necessity. I just need to figure out how to get one with a minimal expenditure of funds. I also need to put hoops on my beds so that I can practice the four-season gardening like you do.
So much to learn and do. So little time and money. Sigh.
Joined: Oct 24, 2006 Posts: 121 Location: Pacific Northwest
Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
Tucker,
I have gardened all of my adult life and have over time increased the amount, quality, and (more importantly) consistency of production and the period of time over which food is produced.
It has only been the last five years or so however, that I have purposefully focussed attention on becoming really self sufficient. Part of that focus resulted in us moving from our old homestead in central washington (which was a large acreage (40 acres) and sunshine filled spot) to our current location which is on a much much smaller acreage and is shade challenged on much of the property - but which is in a climate that has natural rain sources most of the year and milder growing climate allowing for year roud food production using minimal season extension techniques. It was a smart move but set me back a year on food production as a result of the moving and getting set up. The new site also has a nice established woodlot that we have for fuel supply - had no trees where we were before.
My current focus is on increasing the fruit production given the limits of my property - lean heavily on foraging in our local area as we have an abundance of wild berries that we harvest - and I am also honing my ability to garden intensively without much by way of inputs from outside (purchased) sources. I am down to buying a 40 or 50 lb bag each of rock phosphate and greensand every other year for soil reminerialization and I purchase a 25 lb bag of dolomitic lime every year. I have alternative local sources for these products but they are still quite inexpensive and I can purchase them locally. I also have a large jug of natural soap (for pest control), and a jug of BT concentrate that I purchase and a jug of fish/kelp emulsion that I purchase at the start of the year. Again, I could do without these or use local sources - but they are relatively cheap and easy to obtain so I continue to purchase these items. The rest is from local inputs - kelp from our nearby seaside beach, horse manure from the pasture behind our property (nice neighbor!), leaf and fir needle duff from our forestland floor, compost (lots of it!) from my six active working piles, rainwater collected from our shop roof, green alfalfa and other "greens" and "browns" - harvested from our adjoining fields using a simple hand scythe. You get the picture. It's about keeping the expenditures and dependence on outside inputs to a minimum. Same for seed saving. I still purchase alot of seeds... but keep a multi year supply in reserve, save many seeds directly from my garden, and ensure that all the staple crops I have the seed saving/propogating down cold and practiced regularly. Some crops I would just do without if I did not have access to seed - as they are not critical for food production (just nice) and are too hard to propogate seed effectively without extensive isolation practices and large population sizes to begin with to sustain proper genetic viability and breed true. _________________ Check out Our Modern "Victory Garden" - http://www.freewebs.com/kitsapfreedomgardener/
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: A doomer's garden
I am hoping that my present and future gardening efforts will *assist *in feeding me, but there is no way to be self-sufficient in food with only a small space and one person.
I hope that I will be able to grow at least some calorie crops (potatoes & some wheat), herbs and vegetables, fruit & nut trees and berry bushes, plus perennial vegetable plants that most won't recognize as food. I realy like the idea of forest gardens. If the plan is to look like I don't really have much going on from the viewpoint of a passer-by, then food forests and edible landscaping in the front yard would be ideal. I'm growing "experimental" plants right now - I just want to see what the plants look like throughout their lifespans. I'm growing favas, peas, garbanzo beans, cannellini soup beans, pinto beans, potatoes, pumpkins, cantaloupe, garlic, leeks, tomatoes from seed instead of seedlings, and a dozen herbs. I am hoping to get some green tea plants soon, to go with my herbs that make nice tea additions/flavorings (lemon balm, mint etc).
I also plan to grow cash crops for barter, gifts and money (if there's any to be had).
I would like to grow garlic, pepper, loofah sponges (great for dishwashing and washing in the future, and compostable), dye plants, tea bushes and medicinal herbs.
So, to summarize, I plan to grow calorie crops AND cash crops to help support my family.
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 3 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
With fuel shortages going on I'd for damn sure be on the phone to my Congresspeople telling them I wanted rations set aside for farmers - assuming the phone worked, of course...
