Do most here understand the true dimensions of human pain ?
yes
31%
[ 11 ]
no
45%
[ 16 ]
I don't know
22%
[ 8 ]
Total Votes : 35
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threadbear Expert
Joined: Jan 22, 2005 Posts: 7505
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
I agree with you threadbear. Torture is never justified.
However killing is sometimes justified, for example in self-defense.
I'm really baffled by women who have been repeatedly beaten by their husbands and end up dead. The pattern seems to be, they get a separation, and a restraining order, but their husband/boyfriend continues to stalk them. The first you hear about it is the man has broken into her home, through the window one night and murdered her, but this is after months or years of stalking, and breaking into her home. If it was me, I'd get a gun, lie in wait, and would actually enjoy blowing hubby to smithereens. The attitude, "Oh, I could just NEVER kill anyone," seems overly squeamish, and actually a bit cowardly to me.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
Oh...one more thing. I saw part of this terrible movie, The Hostel, about vacationers in Eastern Europe who are tricked into being tortured to death at a kind of Club Dead for sadists. I couldn't watch the torture scenes, so it was a little difficult to piece together what was happening, but just caught enough to be horrified at the prospect that anyone would watch this and enjoy it.
My question is, if people who relish witnessing misery were culled from the general population, would a genetic modification take place. If it did take place could the gene or genes responsible have any survival value, could they express differently or could they be colinked to some other trait? Could we lose something valuable at the same time?
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
threadbear wrote:
Oh...one more thing. I saw part of this terrible movie, The Hostel, about vacationers in Eastern Europe who are tricked into being tortured to death at a kind of Club Dead for sadists. I couldn't watch the torture scenes, so it was a little difficult to piece together what was happening, but just caught enough to be horrified at the prospect that anyone would watch this and enjoy it.
My question is, if people who relish witnessing misery were culled from the general population, would a genetic modification take place. If it did take place could the gene or genes responsible have any survival value, could they express differently or could they be colinked to some other trait? Could we lose something valuable at the same time?
That would assume that it was genetic instead of a learned behavior. I don't think I inherieted a Marx brothers gene that makes me like their movies, I don't think I was born with an ironic gene that makes me relish the ironic. Where as I have a grandparents that do not even understand irony and my wife sits with a confused look on her face when I subject her to the Marx brothers.
On another (but more closely related) issue. Sexual perps. I have spent the last 10 years working with them off and on. This is not to say that all victims will become perps, only that perps were also victims.
We may not understand the deep psych damage done by the things we experience but whether it be torture or raping children i don't think the human source is genetic... there is some damage in that head through what it has experienced.
Can't prove it I guess... but I'm pretty convinced. For whatever that is worth. _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
It's really tough to answer either way. We don't seem to know for sure if psychopathy is inborn or acquired.
What we do know is that certain people are a serious danger to others, so we can take measures to identify them and limit the damage which they can do.
It has been my experience that those attracted to extreme ideologies or extremist "religious" positions tend to have some personality disorder. I suspect that this serves as a sort of camouflage or sometimes outer expression of their problem. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
I actually think relishing other's pain could be partly genetic, and perhaps that trait qualifies one as a sociopath--which is thought to have some physical cause, be it genetic or early brain damage. Perhaps it is an inclination that lies dormant and atrophies if not triggered by events that occur early on.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
It's really tough to answer either way. We don't seem to know for sure if psychopathy is inborn or acquired.
What we do know is that certain people are a serious danger to others, so we can take measures to identify them and limit the damage which they can do.
It has been my experience that those attracted to extreme ideologies or extremist "religious" positions tend to have some personality disorder. I suspect that this serves as a sort of camouflage or sometimes outer expression of their problem.
I've noticed the same thing. I think too that people sometimes find it easier to hem in their own extreme impulses if they construct a strict abusive pseudo parent to control them., in the form of a God. It's too overwhelming and difficult for them to develop the necessary self control and understanding of self to just lean on self discipline.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1927 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
It's really tough to answer either way. We don't seem to know for sure if psychopathy is inborn or acquired.
What we do know is that certain people are a serious danger to others, so we can take measures to identify them and limit the damage which they can do.
It has been my experience that those attracted to extreme ideologies or extremist "religious" positions tend to have some personality disorder. I suspect that this serves as a sort of camouflage or sometimes outer expression of their problem.
Your tendency to label those you disagree with, with labels such as "personality disorder", "psychopath" etc, is rather amusing given your seemingly noble sentiments....the high art of pseudo liberal subterfuge to the nth degree.
A practice perfected with exquisite clarity in those noble souls in the plethora of "humanitarian" NGO's, new labour movements, the new age, anti-globalists and other assorted travellers so busily engaged in manicuring global capitalism's footprints from the west to the third world, from the refugee camps of Haiti to the prestigious trading pits of the NYSE.
And all the while the silence over Guantanamo is deafening....whilst we contemplate todays diet of everyone else's torture, personality defects, psychiatric disorders, etc, etc...everything BUT our own culpability!
Hahaha _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
americandream wrote:
btu2012 wrote:
It's really tough to answer either way. We don't seem to know for sure if psychopathy is inborn or acquired.
What we do know is that certain people are a serious danger to others, so we can take measures to identify them and limit the damage which they can do.
It has been my experience that those attracted to extreme ideologies or extremist "religious" positions tend to have some personality disorder. I suspect that this serves as a sort of camouflage or sometimes outer expression of their problem.
Your tendency to label those you disagree with, with labels such as "personality disorder", "psychopath" etc, is rather amusing given your seemingly noble sentiments....the high art of pseudo liberal subterfuge to the nth degree.
A practice perfected with exquisite clarity in those noble souls in the plethora of "humanitarian" NGO's, new labour movements, the new age, anti-globalists and other assorted travellers so busily engaged in manicuring global capitalism's footprints from the west to the third world, from the refugee camps of Haiti to the prestigious trading pits of the NYSE.
And all the while the silence over Guantanamo is deafening....whilst we contemplate todays diet of everyone else's torture, personality defects, psychiatric disorders, etc, etc...everything BUT our own culpability!
Hahaha
The topic is human pain. I think we can all talk about the different aspects of pain without denigrating other types of pain.
If this starts to get personal please take it to the Hall of Flames. _________________ Nature is complete because it does not serve itself.
The sage places himself after and finds himself before,
Ignores his desire and finds himself content.
He is complete because he does not serve himself. -Lao Tze
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
threadbear wrote:
I'm really baffled by women who have been repeatedly beaten by their husbands and end up dead.
There is some sort of codependency in such relationships, or maybe a Stockholm syndrome. People can get used to being abused. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
threadbear wrote:
I've noticed the same thing. I think too that people sometimes find it easier to hem in their own extreme impulses if they construct a strict abusive pseudo parent to control them., in the form of a God. It's too overwhelming and difficult for them to develop the necessary self control and understanding of self to just lean on self discipline.
Yes. The marker of fake religion is the absence of love. The same applies to ideologies of hate or selfishness. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1927 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
"What we do know is that certain people are a serious danger to others, so we can take measures to identify them and limit the damage which they can do."
Love....in the context of the above rather vague comments can mean anything to anyone. Was it love that motivated Hitler to identify "them"...the mentally ill, the jews, the bolsheviks, gypsies.
Attributing emotional factors to unpleasant social outcomes to the exclusion of objectively consistent economic facts can be extremely dangerous and reduce to a sham what might well have been nobly inspired objectives. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
People get stuck in abusive relationships. Hell could be right next door, or down the street from you. That's why the safe house is so important. Most people in abusive relationships are killed when they try to leave it.
I don't envy the job of the policeman who is called to a domestic violence case. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
Revi wrote:
People get stuck in abusive relationships. Hell could be right next door, or down the street from you. That's why the safe house is so important. Most people in abusive relationships are killed when they try to leave it.
I don't envy the job of the policeman who is called to a domestic violence case.
I can understand how this happens and sympathize with women stuck with an oddball they're afraid of, for any number of reasons. What confuses me is women who have made the break, are independent, but still live in fear, but won't buy a firearm, because they say they don't like violence. I can't imagine this kind of passive reaction.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1927 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
threadbear wrote:
Revi wrote:
People get stuck in abusive relationships. Hell could be right next door, or down the street from you. That's why the safe house is so important. Most people in abusive relationships are killed when they try to leave it.
I don't envy the job of the policeman who is called to a domestic violence case.
I can understand how this happens and sympathize with women stuck with an oddball they're afraid of, for any number of reasons. What confuses me is women who have made the break, are independent, but still live in fear, but won't buy a firearm, because they say they don't like violence. I can't imagine this kind of passive reaction.
Possibly a lot of that has to do with deep conditioning imploring fidelity until "death doth us part". Added to that are the gender and other specific patterns of behaviour that are inculcated into us from our early childhood years and breaking these ingrained patterns of thought, self-destructive as they may appear, are often next to impossible.
In essence, many of these relationships are based on poverty, social conditioning and mutual dependancy....one does not see too many of these sorts of toxic arrangements in the likes of the Hollywood set, do we? _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
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