For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Do most here understand the true dimensions of human pain ?
yes
31%
[ 11 ]
no
45%
[ 16 ]
I don't know
22%
[ 8 ]
Total Votes : 35
Author
Message
btu2012 Fission
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: The true dimensions of pain
I have been disturbed for a long time by what I perceive as a strong tendency of many posters to minimize human suffering.
There seems to be a quite pervasive attitude of almost enjoying the human pain which is to come, an attitude of "bring it on" which might be motivated by some people's dissatisfaction with, and hatred of, our current civilization, or perhaps of their own position within it.
Many here seem to talk with ease and even glibness about extremely serious things such as widespread famine, war, disease, societal collapse, breaks in law and order, the possibility of civil war(s), "zombie hordes" etc -- as if they were taking perverse satisfaction in the likelyhood of these things.
It also seems to me that there is a correlation between this attitude and lack of experience of human suffering, whose dimensions and intensity some people around here seem to underestimate.
I would like to ask for other people's opinions about the origin of this phenomenon and about its possible implications for the future.
Are certain people simply spoiled ? Are they too young and thus don't know what they are talking about ? Do they find some sick pleasure in decay and disaster --and if so, why ? Do they simply want to show off by shocking others ?
What is your opinion ? _________________ only the paranoid survive
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 11991 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
I can't know the "true dimensions of human pain," I can only know my own pain and extrapolate that to other people and other situations. But I can't by any means know if the worst pain I've ever experienced is anywhere near as bad as pain felt by another person. It's just not possible to truly know another person's experience.
I don't understand people who minimize the importance of other peoples' pain. I think some of it might be a kind of showing off, to show how tough they are, how unfeeling. I think a number of people here seem to think they will need to be unfeeling to survive in the future, so they are practicing or pretending to practice being unfeeling now. Or they simply might not have much or any empathy to begin with.
But I can't know for sure what's going on in another person's heart and mind. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow..." - jboogy
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2082 Location: Arkansas
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
BTU,
Unfortunately, you may be in for a shock. In my experience, there are any number of people in the world that truly do relish in other's pain, thus, words like schadenfreude.
Why do you think extremist muslims or any other group videotape their doings? Bc they take pleasure in doing it and watching it over and over. If you want to see how evil people can be, check out this Muslim videos of decapitating Russian soldiers.
So, unfortunately, many people aren't acting. They truly enjoy it. I define those people as evil. The cure for schadenfreude is of course found in Bushido, the idea that the sword is the giver of life by destroying those that do harm and relish in it.
Joined: Apr 27, 2007 Posts: 4262 Location: The Great Sonoran Desert
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
More than 1/2 the population goes to bed starving everyday.
I don't think there is anything that can make this scalable to a human dimension.
So we drink...
we eat...
we pop vicadin...
we drown our miseable lives in anything other than the pain of others.
Then we get hungry...and blame YOU!
Somehow blame is suppose to make the pain less painful.
My dog killed one of my goats today...I am sure it was a slow and painful bleeding out for the goat.
Not much I could have done for her.
Now we will butcher her and feed her to the dogs.
Just the way it goes. _________________ "There must be a bogeyman; there always is, and it cannot be something as esoteric as "resource depletion." You can't go to war with that." Emersonbiggins
"... hope is a rotten-thighed whore" Niko Kazantzakis
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2731 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
It is not about the future pain of others but the current psychological pain of the poster. There is that old saying about scratching a cynic deep enough and you find a disillusioned idealist.
Maybe they were picked on in high school and college, maybe they passed up for that promotion that really should have been thier's maybe they spent the last 50 years preaching the gospel of overpopulation, have been laughed at or the object of scorn so long that they have become scornful. It is a common human experience.
I feel it when I win every point with a co-worker or friend on the issue of peak oil, they essentially acknowledge that I am right, but do nothing or use the phrase "I prefer to believe" to end the discussion, as if preference had anything to do with the issue.
Overcoming it is a deep spiritual obstacle. There are a couple of ways of getting around it, depending upon one's spiritual tradition/dogma... but which ever approach you use one must first decide that they do not wish to remain in it. One must become dissatisfied with dissatisfaction and then search diligently to find the path to something beyond it. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
seahorse wrote:
BTU,
Unfortunately, you may be in for a shock. In my experience, there are any number of people in the world that truly do relish in other's pain, thus, words like schadenfreude.
Definition
Danke schoen seahorse liebe. Das ist zehr nutzlich.
Quote:
The cure for schadenfreude is of course found in Bushido, the idea that the sword is the giver of life by destroying those that do harm and relish in it.
Justice vs empathy. Hochinteresant. _________________ only the paranoid survive
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1721 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
I have been disturbed for a long time by what I perceive as a strong tendency of many posters to minimize human suffering.
There seems to be a quite pervasive attitude of almost enjoying the human pain which is to come, an attitude of "bring it on" which might be motivated by some people's dissatisfaction with, and hatred of, our current civilization, or perhaps of their own position within it.
Many here seem to talk with ease and even glibness about extremely serious things such as widespread famine, war, disease, societal collapse, breaks in law and order, the possibility of civil war(s), "zombie hordes" etc -- as if they were taking perverse satisfaction in the likelyhood of these things.
It also seems to me that there is a correlation between this attitude and lack of experience of human suffering, whose dimensions and intensity some people around here seem to underestimate.
I would like to ask for other people's opinions about the origin of this phenomenon and about its possible implications for the future.
Are certain people simply spoiled ? Are they too young and thus don't know what they are talking about ? Do they find some sick pleasure in decay and disaster --and if so, why ? Do they simply want to show off by shocking others ?
What is your opinion ?
This system, the capitalist system of exploiting resources and arranging entire countries may be your your system, it is not mine and under no circumstances can you convince me otherwise. Why?
Because I have taken the trouble to understand its benefits and risks and the latter far outweigh the former, fatally so for us as a species. The fact that the core resource for driving this system, oil, is depleting hardly comes as a surprise to me. The fact that capitalism will fail is hardly a surpirse to me. The fact that you expect people like me to assume that nodding dog posture you do, comes as no surprise to me.
This apparent inability to look beyond the true nature of the status quo is a function of capitalism's prowess at conditioning you, absolutely. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2584 Location: third from the sun
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Overcoming it is a deep spiritual obstacle. There are a couple of ways of getting around it, depending upon one's spiritual tradition/dogma... but which ever approach you use one must first decide that they do not wish to remain in it. One must become dissatisfied with dissatisfaction and then search diligently to find the path to something beyond it.
Interesting that hopelessness is listed as a sin. You seem to talk about projection of anger, which easily becomes hatred of the whole world. _________________ only the paranoid survive
On the whole it is easier to believe in demons and a devil than it is a God or that there is a sanctified people out there somewhere. What to do with that information? How to live with it? The problem is self reproducing. People take their pain out on others, creating new pain. The victims become the perpetrators.
How does one keep from becoming conformed to the pattern of the one who violated them? I don't pretend to have a map, but I do know that it begins with acknowledging the full impact of human evil and, because I am human, that I am, in essence, am susceptible to the same delusions, illness and pain that leads others to commit great evil.
A immunization if you like... it does not offer 100% protection but at least the psyche has seen the disease before it attacks in its most dangerous form... and your psychological defenses have a leg up in fighting off the disease. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2731 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
btu2012 wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Overcoming it is a deep spiritual obstacle. There are a couple of ways of getting around it, depending upon one's spiritual tradition/dogma... but which ever approach you use one must first decide that they do not wish to remain in it. One must become dissatisfied with dissatisfaction and then search diligently to find the path to something beyond it.
Interesting that hopelessness is listed as a sin. You seem to talk about projection of anger, which easily becomes hatred of the whole world.
I would probably list hopelessness as a temptation, if one wallows around in the temptation it is liable to lead to "sin" heck the very wallowing might be a sin (if you lust after a another's wife you have already committed adultery in your heart etc) but at some level hopelessness is as unavoidable as lust or anger. We will all be dipped in them at some time or another. It is what you do when thrown into lust, anger or hopelessness that is most important.
At some point we must either decide to walk out of them or be responsible for the consequences of continuing to lie in them. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1120 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: The true dimensions of pain
Empathy and callousness are both learned reactions to the pain of others, mirroring how the person was treated as a child when they were in pain.
There are a lot of childhood abuse survivors here, if the posts I've seen are any indication. _________________ What, so I'm in no end game
Move my piece right off the board
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