Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
SILENTTODD wrote:
mark wrote:
What happens when travel becomes too costly? When those in the 'burbs can no longer afford to drive to the city to work? Well... Chicago will be viable for some time, it's the best big city in America and those living "out" will move "in." City real estate will experience a brief revival from those still living the delusion of "normal" life as suburbanites move to the city. That will be my cue to leave. Will I have enough time to construct a survival village of like minded people, especially starting from scratch. No, I don't think so, still, I'll do the best I can.
This week Jim Puplava's weekly podcast admitted that events have moved far faster than even he imagined, so no creamy filling for us. Someday, probably soon, a tsunami of reality will crash over the masses. How 'bout that for a life changing event. The truth is we've been Fark from the beginning, it just takes time, inertia being what it is. So...
I agree with you assessment of Chicago and its outlying areas for anything less than a Matt Savinar envisioned crash (in that case who knows what is good unless you are already there).
Have been listening to Puplava's web casts for the last year also. The guy is very Peak Oil aware if you've never heard him. Link below:
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Fredrik wrote:
kakkerlak wrote:
Hi,
I'm 23 years old, poor and renting in a city (Amsterdam). My situation doesn't allow me to move away or buy a house in the next few years, so my only option is to stay in the city, prepare and hope for the best.
I am VERY interested in ideas on how to prepare in the city and how to do that with a limited amount of money.
Relocating to a rural area may not be necessary (unless you believe in an instant chaos situation, which I think is quite unlikely even with a fast oil production decline). In fact it could be a big mistake unless you had a truly self-sustaining farm, which is quite expensive to acquire. In the city you have mass transit and more job opportunities. I'd guess that Amsterdam is the last place where the Dutch government would allow actual food shortages if such can be avoided. It would be a major advantage to get a skill that will still be in demand after PO, like in the energy sector, food processing, clothesmaking or shoemaking (shoes will probably be in very high demand). Having family members / relatives around and being part of a larger community is essential as well; admittedly this isn't always easy in a big city.
Well, spoken reply.
The pitfall of big city living is that of mass unrest and people killing people. If that does not happen then you got most of what you need right there.
I live in the city / country, but city (pop 30,000) is just a few miles away and can be walked to. But from living in L.A. it might as well be vast wilderness to how I used to live.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
idomar wrote:
I am in London, and agree with xerces that the major cities will be the last places to go under. Dense population and easy distribution networks. It is the country folk that dont own land or produce anything that will suffer first. Most country villages or towns dont have reliable public transport links, even more donthave shops! they were closed due to out of town mega centres that offered cheaper deals.
Anyway who wants to live in the countryside, it smells funny and you cant get anything you want delivered to your front door at anytime of the day
Yes, in my local we have poor public transport to the outlying areas. It would be nice if we had a back up electric trolley if diesel was in short supply for buses.
As far as smell funny? I am starting to get used to the smell of manure!
I must ask what is it you want delivered to your door day or night? Most of what I bought in the past is worthless for a post carbon world...so I'd caution you to 'buy right' and not buy just ego.
Last edited by allenwrench on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
I am 23 also, and live in downtown Minneapolis. I understand the seriousness of the situation, but I cannot afford to move out of the city right now. Last summer I donated my 1992 Volvo to charity, so my monthly bills are quite reduced. I can pretty much take the train and walk everywhere.
I guess i've just been riding the waves of life. I don't have fear of the future, although I expect it to be hard. i guess I await it in anticipation. Life is so routine and a little struggle never hurt anyone right? In the meantime I eat only when I am hungry and spread the word. A few letters to the editor have been published in the star tribune and most of my friends have come around to realizing the there is indeed a problem.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Kristen wrote:
I am 23 also, and live in downtown Minneapolis. I understand the seriousness of the situation, but I cannot afford to move out of the city right now. Last summer I donated my 1992 Volvo to charity, so my monthly bills are quite reduced. I can pretty much take the train and walk everywhere.
I guess i've just been riding the waves of life. I don't have fear of the future, although I expect it to be hard. i guess I await it in anticipation. Life is so routine and a little struggle never hurt anyone right? In the meantime I eat only when I am hungry and spread the word. A few letters to the editor have been published in the star tribune and most of my friends have come around to realizing the there is indeed a problem.
Well you have done better than me. in 2007 I wrote to 15 of the largest newspapers in the US and a half dozen news magazines about this subject of PO and not one publication was interested.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
hope_full wrote:
Southeastern Virginia has more than one million people and hubby has a good job with the government, so we're planning to stay put. However, I do have a plan to "bug out" if things around here get ugly and travel west.
In the meantime, my garden is planted and I've made other preparations. And I pay mighty close attention to the local and national news. I think - for those paying attention - there will be signs before TSHTF.
I believe it'll be a slow decline and not a fast collapse. And I do a lot of praying these days, hoping to be divinely led to do the right thing at the right time.
HF
Well, my wife says pray but keep rowing the boat. I don't pray since I have left Catholicism and am an agnostic.
But signs...Yes!
There will be many signposts such as...widespread US riots, never ending gas rations or gas just unavailable, commercial airlines have shut down, widespread unemployment, people going hungry from food shortages, trucks having trouble making deliveries to Walmart do to lack of diesel, widespread power outages, people freezing to death because of heating oil, electric and NG shortages, , breakdown in local and national gov services, gold and silver in the stratosphere and the like.
And these signposts are just the beginning of the end. We will look back at these 'inconveniences' as the good old days more than likely once TEOTWAK matures.
Now, I don't have a crystal ball and life can also change without much warning if a world wide war erupts to grab the last remaining resources by any means necessary. But more than likely it will be a slow to moderate deterioration in our world with some warning signs.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Allen, I think the signs are there, people aren't ready to admit it. Take my mom for example, I was worried back in 2005 about this and she told me to stop being such a worry wort. As the years have progressed she just seems mad at me about it, especially when I bring it up. Way to be the bearer of bad news, I guess. I think also its because i have a little sister that's 12. Having kids must make it a lot worse because no one wants there kids to be worse off.
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Just a couple of points. First, I have never heard of a 'riot' in the country. I have heard of vigilantes in rural areas burning out hobo jungles and squatters (stories from my grandmother).
The way I introduce people to PO is to give them a copy of the history channel show. Some how, even though some of the stuff they show is silly, it makes it ok for people to believe, because its on TV. Plus they don't get mad at you for telling them and tell the whole town your a nut.
Just thought I'd share. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 3129 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Kristen wrote:
Having kids must make it a lot worse because no one wants there kids to be worse off.
What makes having kids a problem is two-fold. First, you have to tell them sooner or later that the paradise of modern civilization is going to crash and burn. Second, until TSHTF, it's tantamount to child abuse to bug out with your child and live like a hermit, no schools, no friends. So it limits the options/timing of your preps. _________________ Peak oil is sort of like a mental Everlasting Gobstopper, except it tastes like ass and you can't get it out of your mouth.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
allenwrench wrote:
xerces wrote:
I intentionally moved INTO the middle of NYC over a year ago. As I see it, major cities will be the last place where utilities and supplies are allowed to run out. So far it's worked out pretty well for me.
I have cut my electricity usage by 80%, gas usage by 99%. My gross annual income has tripled in the last 2 years, and I finally got my own urban permaculture side-business running.
Interesting direction...going into the eye of the storm so to speak.
I talked with a guy from NY that was big on permaculure. He had a group he was member to that would pool money and buy preps each month. Is permaculture and PO preps taking off in NY? Do you pan on sticking it out in the big city? What would cause you to move out?
<<<<< Permaculture in Manhattan >>>>>
I still can't believe anyone can say that with a straight face. Two million people on a tiny island surrounded by boroughs with six million more people. No disrespect Xerces but sustainability requires a lot more common sense than that.
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
kakkerlak wrote:
Hi,
I am VERY interested in ideas on how to prepare in the city and how to do that with a limited amount of money.
Teach yourself a useful post-peak skill. In Amsterdam the obvious one to go for is bicycle repair. As you can afford to, gradually acquire all the tools that are needed for bicycle repair. You need somewhere secure to store them, as they will at some point become very attractive to theft.
Go for hand powered tools rather than electricity powered - eg a good old fashioned hand drill rather than a Black & Decker - or if you can afford to, get both.
Anybody with the tools & skill to keep old kit working will be in high demand in the post peak world. People will be more inclined to 'mend and make do' as they were in the post WW2 'austerity' period in the UK. Old had to be fixed because we couldn't afford new.
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
First of all there is a big difference between a European city like Amsterdam and an American city (which I personally don't know, but I suppose it's far more stretched out like in Australia) I cannot imagine permaculture in Manhattan, at least not for more than a tiny fraction of the inhabitants, because it's much too dense, nor for Amsterdam.
We live in Brisbane, and here the situation is different because most people have backyards and can produce at least a fraction of the food.
Our yard is densely planted but if we, as a family, would have to live from that, we would starve.
I think for those who must live in big cities, they should consider if there is a possibility moving to a smaller one.
If you are young and have no kids you are more flexible. You could maybe spend your holidays on farms (WWOOFING) working as a farm hand, so at least if the hell breaks loose you would have ties to the countryside.
I personally would prefer moving to the country. But not only young people have limited finances and we need our income as well as my husband loves his science.
Amsterdam is not a good place to be as it will be under water soon.
Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 1194 Location: England
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
allenwrench wrote:
SoothSayer wrote:
Bugged out to a rural village, changed career and bought 5 acres of (sadly low-grade) land.
The key point is that all this takes YEARS not weeks to carry out ... unless you are rich I suppose.
Well, your already out it seems. So at least your big city worries are behind you. Good point about planning ahead and not rushing.
What's wrong with the land? How could you have avoided the problems you experienced?
The land is heavy clay ... not easy to work!
Land is hard enough to find in the UK anyway ... so if you haven't got much money you need to grab what's available.
A 60-acre farm was sold about a mile away recently ... they got around $26,000 an acre!
If re-running history, we would have saved more in order to find a better place ... but we only realised the severity of PO and other global problems recently, which didn't give much time to save! _________________ Technology will save us!
Last edited by SoothSayer on Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Jan 18, 2008 Posts: 70 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
allenwrench wrote:
How is your part of Europe for post carbon living versus the US? What are some of your concerns?
I don't think much about the situation after the collapse (or whatever it's called) and surviving the next 25 year is my first priority. Whatever may happen after this period of time is beyond my intellectual and financial abilities at the moment.
Using this timeframe to answer the question;
I think The Netherlands (and neighbours) is not a really bad place to be when things start to go wrong. The first positive thing to note is that riots or other violence will be much less then in the USA. Guns are not a birthright in this country and only the police is armed and trained in using those weapons (this could become a problem in the future).
Natural disasters are not a problem either. The big environmental problems around here are mostly overpopulation and pollution (people and cows are reduced to 'environment' in my mind). I do not think that food will become a big problem any time soon, but clean drinking water may become problematic because of pollution.
My preparations are based on one line of though. As long as i'm alive, free and healthy i can handle everything that is thrown at me. The only thing capable to destroy my live, take my freedom and destroy my health is a pandemic. So, my focus is on preparing for a pandemic or any other health related problem that could kill or disable me in a short time.
My main plan is to get as much skills and knowledge as possible and i hope to store enough stuff to survive a year in total isolation. For the long term i am dependant on seeds and knowledge i do not currently have, but that's only important if i'm not dead.
My second biggest concern is paying the rent during a crisis. Especially during a pandemic it is not smart to go to work and risk dead for some stupid money.
It's my dream to have a little farm. Too bad it's not possible.
alokin wrote:
I cannot imagine permaculture in Manhattan, at least not for more than a tiny fraction of the inhabitants, because it's much too dense, nor for Amsterdam.
Actually, most old buildings in the centre of Amsterdam are placed in such a way that it is possible to have a large garden between them. As a bonus this open space is only accessible by people who live in those buildings.
Trust me on this, Amsterdam (the center) is one of the best designed city's in the world and is perfect for permaculture. I think that if necessary Amsterdam can sustain itself completely partly; it's like having built-in rural areas in the middle of the city. It's a brilliant city design. However, i suggest to demolish all buildings newer then 100 years.
Have fun!
Roach _________________ "The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax." ~ Albert Einstein
Joined: Aug 24, 2005 Posts: 298 Location: Costa Geriatrica, Spain
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
alokin wrote:
Amsterdam is not a good place to be as it will be under water soon.
I doubt it . People have been saying that about the whole of Holland for over 400 years, the Dutch have dealt with that situation just fine - in fact reclaiming a lot of seabed and turning into farmland. I don't think a few centimeters (to take a reasonable view rather than some of the wackier ''worst case scenarios") of sea level rise is going to worry the Dutch.
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