Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
ORCA wrote:
Various human cultures have been shoving each other around on the face of the planet since the beginning. That "imerialistic" practice won't end with the onset of hard economic times.
In planning for a bleak future we may not even be able to visualize, we planners have to take into consideration ALL likely risks to us and ours that includes the level of hazard each risk could present.
Like it or not, the risk of Islamic facsism is currently present throughout Europe. Some locations more than others. Referring to me as a "Bigot" does not change that fact.
I was once smitten by the Native American - that "Regal Savage" - until I began educating myself on actual historical events invloving the interactions on this continent between the aforementioned culture and the Spanish, French, English, and the "new" Americans. Its quite eye-opening to discover that the regal savage was every bit as imperialistic, conniving, blood-thirsty, and bigotted as any person of European decent. While this subject has no purpose in this thread, it was brought up as a diversion (a common practise when someone can't argue the origional comment) and I wanted to address it.
Now back to your origional scheduled programming!
Yes, it is in our nature to always look for greener grass. We took it from the Injuns, but we don't like anyone taking it from us, do we.
Really most people have no problems with Christians, Atheists or Muslims. The problem arise when the Christians, Atheists or Muslims become too militant or extreme or out of balance.
The moderate theist accepts a moderate atheist, just as a moderate atheist accepts a moderate theist.
It is out of balance, extreme views that sets one apart.
Problems within society do not come from Muslims...the problems come from extreme Muslims.
Same with all the rest whether Christian or Atheist...seek balance...seek inner peace within and with all.
Talks about 'getting high' on religion. We can also get high on hatred and other emotions, so there are many areas to look out for when the subject turns to balanced living.
Many people gravitate towards extreme views since this works magic on blinding them from the pain in their lives.
A few years ago I read an article in the Wall Street Journal about a con man named Charles Ponzi. He was credited with inventing the first pyramid scheme.
The article stated when Ponzi was interviewed he was asked how he was able to swindle so many people so easily, his responded, "When a man's mind is concentrated he is blind."
This case of having your mind concentrated to the point of blindness is not anything new. The ancient philosophers new this well. They called it "putting passion before reason."
Both these areas of passion and reason where the foundation of much philosophical discussion of ethics and virtue with the ancient Greeks. They knew when passion rules the mind, that the only job left for reason is that of the subservient task to find cleaver ways to satisfy the passions.
When our minds are occupied with too much wreckage of the past, too many problems and complexities and out of control passions then there is little room left in it for reasoning. It is then easy to fall into extreme thinking.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
thuja wrote:
Its a shame that most of The Peak Oil crowd talks up the rural life so much...because they are deluded.
It is nice to imagine a full spread of land that is self-sufficient without any need for help from folks ourtside their neighborhood...but that is a myth.
The Peak Oil ruralista likes to imagine an idealized life where a few hardy folks band together in the countryside while the city folks starve and kill each other. They neglect to think about how all the stores will close up, the renters will move to the cities, those with a mortgage will quickly not be able to pay their bills and be foreclosed on, and they will still need all those pesky things that are manufactured...in the city.
They like to imagine truckers out of fuel not delivering food to the cities (neglecting to imagine that most rurtal folks need to goto the grocery store too) and then 200 million city folks starving in the streets within a couple weeks. Wow...
I live in Portland, have chickens, garden every square inch of my property and just need staples. I hunt, fish and chop my own wood. I will depend on...agro business...to continue providing me with those staples.
The ruralista...will rely on getting to jobs in more built up areas and manufactured goods made in cities to keep up their infrastructure on their land. The relationship is symbiotic.
Such silliness...
I've lived in big cities and I prefer my semi rural area any day.
It's amazing how the old timers did it. ( Prairie days) although they even deepened on trains bringing in stuff. Read some of the Little House books.
But tough or not tough, Pitchforks, hoes, tractor parts, piping, hoes, fencing, sewing needles, clothing, nails, screws, bricks, concrete, roads...are all crude based. And the crude is drying up.
So as survivalists we first must think the unthinkable before we can prepare for it. It is like insurance. We buy insurance and hope we never need it...but if we do it is there.
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
dorlomin wrote:
Planning for the future with so many variables is just about the hardest thing in the world. "The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men Gang aft a-gley".... no matter what you do the risks are huge and the chances of success not as good as most think.
I do not have alot of capital stashed away and am not long out of university having just started the first really good paying job since then. I need to save a decent amount of money for a few years before I can get a deposit down on a property. The idea of paying for property in cash is just never going to happen. My objective is to have enough land to be able to subsidise my calorie intake not necessarily to completely get all the calories from the land. I just dont see me being able to afford enough land in a short space of time. My thinking at the moment is almost the reverse of what everyone else is saying about suburbs and moving into a relatively distant suburb. I have already cycled 20 miles to work for the past three years (until I started my new job in november) so I am thinking of moving against the trend of the getting as close to the city as possible. My hope is to steadily build up enough money to eventualy buy a small holding that can be manually farmed with a permaculture basis and produce a small surplus for trading.
However I honestly feel in about 4 or 5 years this is going to be a very very popular idea and that the farms near to the cities will be fiding it very popular to try to break themselves up into smaller holdings and sell themselves off. On the other hand I suspect once the government realises what is going on they will ban the break up of farms into smaller units in order to maximise productivity.
The point is that with a long term 'plan A' in focus and with only an even chance of bringing that off in the mean time, also to prepare for unemployment, finacial turmoil and social unrest. Minimizing my personal outgoings and living a spartan life are a part of this. Storing my wealth in a building society is not too clever in an inflationary world, but I am sort of struggling to see other alternatives. Also important is building up a stock of food. I think 3 months seems sufficient in the near term and a good trade off of space and calories. After a certain size it just gets too bulky for a rented room. This is not to survive some peak oil sudden armageddon, just to ensure that if there is long term strikes and other disturbances I am covered. The most cunning and laughable idea is to buy a few second hand cheap car batteries. If power becomes erratic I can store up energy when its on and have a wee bit of power if we start getting brownouts and rolling blackouts. I also need to look at solar cells in some form to ensure a modest amount of energy independence.
Yes, it is tough being a futurist and calling it all right.
But I do the footwork to do what I can do, irrespective of all the 'what ifs' that people throw up for excuses to do nothing.
20 mile bike trip...that is impressive. In my local it is too hilly for bikes. I wish it was flatter, but the hills help with tornado blocking anyway.
If our way is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and see the results.
The bible reminds us of this "Test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil," (1 Thess. 5:21)
Even if you are an atheist, this concept of testing can be of help to you. For with such tests, 'the proof of the pudding will be in the eating' and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but will be grounded in truth..
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
Nicholai wrote:
I'm going to Norway.
I'm leaving the Canadian suburbs to a 30$ an hour job, a country with an enormous surplus of 300$ billion and a marginally sustainable community. It isn't perfect but their homes do use 25% of the energy of the average British home. The population is small. Lots of fjords and fresh water. I'll have to rent a place but I'm thinking of posting an add in a local paper asking if any old farm couple needs a young fellow to help them out. We'll see how it goes, I hope for the best.
Good for you.
As I said. test it out...while the airlines are still flying!
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
wisconsin_cur wrote:
MrBean wrote:
ORCA wrote:
Yes, and its due to the lowered European immigration standards that allowed millions of muslims to enter. Now, Islamic radicals are busy. They have their own plan for Europe. Native Europeans will have more to deal with than just hunger!
Not as bad as when the Indoeuropean immigrants came with their forest cutting and soil destroying imperialistic farming tech, with their patriarchal culture and endless petty wars, and took the land from native inhabitants.
There were of course great civilizations that arose on the N. American and S. American continents prior to the arrival of the europeans, some had already collapsed (in part because of an "imperialistic" farming practices) and some were in existence (being nice and imperial against their own neighbors) when the Europeans showed up. Native Americans were equally capable of "petty wars" and taking land from one another.
Without defending Orca, we are all part of one species and the human condition applies to each culture. We make war, we try to push one another off of resources, we commit genocide, we hate "them" and they hate "us," whoever them and us are. We have a plan for Iraq and some muslims have a plan for europe. some Mexicans have a plan for the American southwest and some Chinese have a plan for southeast Asian. Some Russians have a plan for the former USSR nations and some Ethiopians have plans for Somolia or Eritrea.
Orca and Bean are peas of the same pod. They romantisize one culture to the detriment of another, only the objects of their affection and disdain are divergent. Both mental moves are equally flawed.
Once we start to block out things due to prejudice we can block out truth via the same mechanics of an ego based truth barometer.
Let me give you an example. It deals with religious thought, so if you are not interested in such things then skip it.
I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide spectrum of believers and non believers.
One atheist said he ran his life by the golden rule.
A theist piped up that the golden rule came from the bible, which made the atheist wince.
The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible.
When it came up that the concept of golden rule might be from an earlier source than the bible, the atheist was relieved.
This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light resides?
Is it ego based or truth based?
When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he was upset.
How can the same material be used to build a palace by one man, yet only build a hovel for another?
By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying it to live a life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice and problems and doing nothing.
Joined: May 28, 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Old Dominion
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Big city dwellers...what's your plan?
biofuel13 wrote:
ORCA--
Where do you get your history lessons? Free inside CrackerJack boxes??
I assume you are referring to my comment regarding all those "Injuns".
Mostly books. Books with footnoted historical accounts from both sides that named names, locations, times and dates, events, and the motivations of those involved.
I would certainly challenge you to spend some time doing the same, especially during the period of the French and Indian War, the Revolution, and during the War of 1812. (Did you know that the Algonquin Nation was a true democracy and that it lasted almost 1,000 years. Did you know that this tribal confederation is known to have exterminated other tribes?) (Did you know that the mighty Sioux Tribe is not a plains tribe, but of the upper Greats Lakes and that they were driven out and their land taken by other tribes?)
Enough of that. "Man" is the same today as yesterday. The same motivations exist as before. Whether greed, ego, of some extreme belief, the danger - the unbalance - still occurs and those who plan ahead need to take that into account when planning just like other risks. _________________ "If everything is going well, you obviously overlooked something."
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