How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
what the hell is going on with fusion? why is the united states cutting the budget on the iter project, shouldn't it be the other way around? the united states spent billions on the development of the atom bomb back in the early 40's, why dont we have the same initiative to build and develop this technology, just think if this became a reality, peak oil wouldnt be a global nightmare anymore
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
Okay, this is going to sound cynical even for this forum, but:
I believe that fusion isn't getting more funding because those who control the purse strings are starting to see that commercial fusion will never happen- it is the energy of the future and always will be- commercially viable fusion power always seems to be "40 years away" even after all the countless billions of dollars, yens, and euros that have been poured into it over the decades.
It's not just about the financial resources either- think of all the geniuses, boffins, and brainiacs who have been working together round the world and round the clock for so long to get this damned fusion thing off the ground. I honestly believe that commercial fusion power stands just on the other side of the upper limit of mankind's intellectual capabilities; all those cornucopians who believe that we have a limitless intelligence and capacity for problem solving as a species are going to be disproved in the end by the failure of commercial fusion (they are actually being disproved by it right now IMO).
Look at it this way: it took someone like Einstein to figure out the Theory of Relativity and that E=MC^2, and he would easily be in the top 1% of the human population intelligence wise- and keep in mind that was 100 years ago. The next set of scientific challenges are naturally more difficult than the last- eventually we reach a scientific/ technical problem that is beyond the capabilities of even the very smartest people in the world all working together. It doesn't matter if they've got supercomputers either because these are just tools in the end and like all tools they are only as useful as the person using them and the capabilities of the person who designed them.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
Precipice, cynical? Nah. I'd call what you said reality-based.
But you will take a serious drubbing around here if you don't tow the usual techtopian line. You know---nano, biotech, fusion, AI, robotics, black light, dark matter, free energy, perpetual motion, fairy dust _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Nov 08, 2005 Posts: 256 Location: The Maple State
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
Precipice IMO that was hardly cynical at all. Now if one takes the view that Einstein was an effective disinfo agent, now that would be cynical.
BTW the rational being that confusing 'space-time relativity' was promoted because of its ability to cause complexity and confusion as well as avoid aether. Without 'einstein' scientists could have focused on frequency and wavelength and got on with things!
CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts -- At an MIT lecture hall on Saturday, a convocation of 50 researchers and investors gathered to discuss a phenomenon that allegedly does not exist.
Despite a backdrop of meager funding and career-killing derision from mainstream scientists and engineers, cold fusion is anything but a dead field of research. Presenters at the MIT event estimated that 3,000 published studies from scientists around the world have contributed to the growing canon of evidence suggesting that small but promising amounts of energy can be generated using the infamous tabletop apparatus.
How reproducible the experiments might be, however, and how the mysterious phenomenon works are still very much open to interpretation.
Demonstrating recent results of energetic radiation streaming from a running cold-fusion experiment, Lawrence Forsley of JWK Technologies in Annandale, Virginia, passed around samples of his group's experimental apparatus -- all of which could be packed into a shoebox with room to spare. The compact plastic and rubber tubing illustrate the intrinsic paradox of this field: Compared to the warehouses worth of billion-dollar gadgetry needed to run "hot fusion," cold fusion research is cheap to fund. And yet cash is the primary limiting factor holding the research back.
Quote:
Robert Weber, managing director of the Watertown, Massachusetts-based consulting firm Strategy Kinetics, has worked with startup technologies and says cold fusion is in a bind in the United States today. Researchers need at least $50 to $100 million in seed money, he said, to fully test its viability and commercial applications, if any.
With research budgets around the world primarily funding "hot fusion" research, the burden falls to angel investors, corporations (such as Mitsubishi, which has funded cold fusion experiments) and a few countries (such as Japan, China, South Korea and Israel) willing to venture into cold fusion's murky waters.
Chump change. Tsk, tsk.
Last edited by Scenius on Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
Precipice wrote:
all those cornucopians who believe that we have a limitless intelligence and capacity for problem solving as a species are going to be disproved in the end by the failure of commercial fusion (they are actually being disproved by it right now IMO).
Oh I'm sure we'll figure it out eventually, just not this century. And when we do, the applications will likely be very narrow for another century.
Thats allready partly true. We can build inertial confinement fusion reactors today; The technology is over 50 years old. But its not going to be very competitive to build miles deep caverns lined by twenty meter thick steel walls with molten salt deluge absorbing the put put energy of thermonuclear bombs going off. Its quite a bit easier to simply build a fission reactor.
People look towards fusion being a solution, but whats the problem? If its energy, we have better solutions today.
Joined: May 06, 2006 Posts: 811 Location: Tustin, CA
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
keehah wrote:
The War Against Cold Fusion
Check out the 11-13 minute mark. The same Dr. that pumps disinfo to derail 911 investigations also derailed cold fusion!
As for hot fusion, are our tax dollars being spent trying to do what they think the sun does, except it is not primarily what the sun does?
Thanks for the links keehah. 'Cold Fusion' was something I guess I turned a blind eye to when it was labeled pseudo-science 20 years ago. I'm curious as to the arguments one way or the other on it.
My main concern though about this as an energy source is the same we need to weigh any possible energy salvation, which is EROEI-Energy Return On Energy Investment. I listened to the first video on your post and did not come away with a figure for that. Granted every thing the proponents say may be true. But if the energy return rate is say 1.000000001 to 1 EROEI, will it in anyway be useful? It's the very real argument against ethanol, takes almost as much energy to produce as it can possibly deliver. _________________ Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
Last edited by SILENTTODD on Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Mar 28, 2005 Posts: 399 Location: Northern California, USA
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
If you've been listening to George Bush you'll realize that ethanol and hydrogen are the energy future.
Corn Ethanol and Hydrogen are the two worst alternative energy options available. They are both horribly inefficient and possibly negative eroei and yet they get the most money and hype from the government.
Joined: Mar 28, 2005 Posts: 399 Location: Northern California, USA
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
I think out of all the new energy schemes cold fusion has the most promise of breaking through to legitimacy because there are literally several hundred well qualified researchers studying the technology all over the world. It's not some lone paranoid nerd in his basement.
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: why isn't the world focusing on fusion
dissturbbed wrote:
what the hell is going on with fusion? why is the united states cutting the budget on the iter project, shouldn't it be the other way around? the united states spent billions on the development of the atom bomb back in the early 40's, why dont we have the same initiative to build and develop this technology, just think if this became a reality, peak oil wouldnt be a global nightmare anymore
Peak oil is tomorrow in planning terms. Even if we had fusion tomorrow, it would take decades to bring to a mature point and distribute it worldwide. And it still would produce only electricity and not liquid fuels.
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
