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ReducedToZero
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 29, 2008
Posts: 82
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA / San Jose, CA
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 Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:53 pm Post subject: Guns |
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Despite the debate weather we will need firearms in a PO world for defense and/or food, I have grown up my entire life in California and have had very little exposure to guns. I have never been hunting or to a shooting range, and I really dont understand where to even start.
Do I just go to a gun shop is that where I start?
Shooting Range?
NRA?
Anyone with some introductory insight would be most appreciated.
Some questions are so basic I cant just "google" them. |
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wisconsin_cur
Moderator
Joined: May 10, 2007
Posts: 2918
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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First find a basic gun safety course so you do not shoot your own foot off or someone else's head.
That will teach you the basic parts and types of firearms and is a good introductory. I don't know about Cali but here in Wisconsin you would need to be ready to be in a classroom with a bunch of 10-12 year olds 
During that class I would talk to the instructor. He might now a range or gun store that has access to range where you could get a chance to actually do some shooting. I believe some high end ranges even allow you to rent arms to try them out.
At some point you will want to buy a starter gun and spend a lot of time at the range with it learning to use it. Learn to clean and care for it.
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"Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable."
John Kenneth Galbraith |
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neocone
Heavy Crude
Joined: Sep 23, 2006
Posts: 230
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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Not sure about where you are but I highly recommend all safe defense in the OC. TJ is amazing and his training actually provides insight how to properly use firearms and what to or not expect from them. It is especially adapted to California and its anti-gun climate (which almost makes it similar to some European countries).
www.allsafedefense.com |
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mefistofeles
Heavy Crude
Joined: Mar 21, 2005
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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First go to a range, a rifle range is preferable but a pistol range would do. Most pistol ranges will allow you to rent a handgun and they will also provide some rudimentary instruction.
People at gun ranges are quite sociable too. As an unstated rule if you want to fire someone's gun they will usually let you, of course you should be kind and reciprocate,even if you have a rented weapon.
Don't get me wrong I think handguns are great weapons but they're quite limited in terms of range and power. You really need to take up rifle shooting. Although the drawback there is that even in "gun friendly" areas its hard to find a rifle range.
Of course if you really want to be a marksman by a .22 bolt action rifle. You can load the rifle with subsonic ammunition and actually do target practice in doors and use something like a phone book as a ballistic stop. Note that subsonic .22's have very low pressure so an autoloading rifle won't cycle and load the next round properly.
I think the real key is to buy a .223 (aka 5.56 x45 mm) rifle and become proficient with it. Alot of people will say you need something like an AR-15 with a 30 round magazine. I think that's BS you don't burn off dozens of rounds in a self defense situation. Being a good shot and being able to conceal yourself is much more important. Personally I would recommend an autoloading .223 that can accept mags.
However its important to understand that if someone is armed and they are coming after you whether it be with a pistol,rifle or chopping ax they aren't going to politely sit still while you shoot at them. They're going to be trying to evade you. That's why its important to have an autoloading rifle because you can take a quick follow up shot if your first shot misses. Even armed and dangerous people don't want to get shot!
You should always shoot a weapon before you buy it. Guns are like anything in life the more try to understand them the more you will get of them. Reward=Investment. |
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pstarr
Expert
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7089
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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ReducedToZero I was pretty new on handgun laws in California like you are. So I went to an indoor pistol range and was told I needed to pass a test. There is probably a range near you.
They gave me an official CA handgun book to read. I came back to the same range, and took the test for $25. And passed (of course ).
The folks at the range are great. Free advice. Cheap reload ammo. Sold me two handguns. A 9mm and a .22 (for the little lady. She is yet to get her license).
guns are fun. whoopee. get'em while you can.
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pstarr
Expert
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7089
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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thanks for the tips mefistofeles. You among others, are convincing me to buy a .223. Any brands or models to recommend?
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steam_cannon
Expert
Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 2460
Location: MA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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* If you're a total newbie, perhaps try out bb's and paintball guns...
Sounds lame, but hey you can learn a lot from a bbgun.
* A gun safety course is definitely a good place to start.
* If you are in college, ROTC is always an option. I loved that stuff
and they love to teach.
* Heck, this might sound like a stupid idea, but any of those guys
you see at the mall asking people to sign up for the Army would
probably love to show you around a shooting range. Even if you tell
them you aren't interested in signing up, they'd still probably love to
show you a few things or at least tell you where to go.
| mefistofeles wrote: | People at gun ranges are quite sociable too. As an unstated rule if
you want to fire someone's gun they will usually let you, of course
you should be kind and reciprocate,even if you have a rented weapon. |
Some very good points... |
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alokin
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 787
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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Why a gun? But it maybe difficult if everyone around you owns a gun, but you. I always lived in countries were it is forbidden to have a gun (which is FAR better and LOTS safer).
I you want to hunt I guess that there will be a lot more people doing the same and wildlife population will decline. IMO it is easier raising some rabbits. |
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mefistofeles
Heavy Crude
Joined: Mar 21, 2005
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Guns |
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| Quote: | | You among others, are convincing me to buy a .223. Any brands or models to recommend? |
If you live in California your choices for magazine fed .223 weapons are quite limited. There is always the Ruger Mini 14 . At least from what I have read on the net its not the most accurate weapon in stock form a stock AR-15 will easily outshoot it.
But you might considering buying a used mini 14 and sending off to Accuracy Systems . They will add a super heavy barrel and completely rebuild the rifle into a true markman's weapon.
Accuracy Systems Accurizing Packages
Although I don't think even the accurized mini 14 will be as accurate as a AR with a 24 inch match barrel the reliability is going to be better and let's face it for most of its going to be accurate enough.
If you live in California another option to consider would be the California Legal Springfield Armory M1A. This rifle uses the .308 (7.62x51) cartridge and is capable of going through most conventional body armor, so if you did encounter attackers using body armor you wouldn't have any problems. Although seeing criminals in body armor is rare there have been a few home invasions in Arizona where people formerly or currently associated with the Mexican Army did attempt home robberies/assasinations with AR styles rifles and body armor. Of course the downside to the cartridge is its power. If you shot a non armored assailant the round may over penetrate and blow through your house. Although overpenetration may occur with the .223 catridge its going to be alot worse with a .308 cartridge.
Also this rifle has a stronger recoil than a .223 autoloader. This will effect your accuracy for follow up shots and mean slightly longer recovery times between shots. However ballistically if you have the skills and optics hitting targets at 800 meters isn't unreasonable.
However if you live outside of California I would recommend a .223 AK, its by far the cheapest solution. The weapon system itself is very reliable but the sights suck and you need to add a scope mount.
However AK's a very easy to clean and field strip. Mags are also fairly cheap.
If you go this route however you should replace the sights because the stock sights suck big time.
AR15.com has nice a 223 AK thread and a monstrous AK-47 forum .
The AR-15 is always a good route because there are many accesories available for it. Lasers,flashlights,foregrips,nightscopes all these things can be added to the AR, depending upon the laws of your jurisdiction.
The only disadvantage is the gas impingement system, its less reliable than the systems used in piston driven weapons.
Supposedly the Best AR style rifles are made by Colt Manufacturing . I would imagine that Armalite Arms would probably run a close second.
Then there is a whole new generation of piston driven .223 weapons that are being manufactured by various companies:
Magpul/Bushmaster Masada
SIG 556
Robinson Arms XCR
To confuse things even further a company called Leitner Weise makes a piston driven AR that is compatible with a number of AR accesories.
DSARMS also makes piston driven AR but I don't know how reliable it is. |
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pstarr
Expert
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7089
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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thanks mefistofeles. a lot to digest.
Man, what are those freaky guns from Survival? All I want is some defense and a light deer rife.
Why can't I buy an .223 AK in ca.?
Do the piston driven guns have an advantage over the other kind? What is the other kind?
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mefistofeles
Heavy Crude
Joined: Mar 21, 2005
Posts: 191
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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| Quote: | | Why can't I buy an .223 AK in ca.? |
You can but it has to comply with the Assualt Weapons ban, that means you're going either lose the grip or be stuck with a fixed magazine versuses a detachable magazine.
If you have a fixed magazine you simply can't pull the magazine out and slap in another one. You have break open the gun and reload it bullet by bullet.
There are various disadvantages to using something that has been classfied as an Assualt Weapon, at least in California.
| Quote: | | Do the piston driven guns have an advantage over the other kind? What is the other kind? |
The AR-15 uses what's called a Direct Impingement gas system where the gas itself actually pushes the bolt carrier back. Unfortunately in this kind of setup the gas tube must be small in order to insure that the gas has sufficient pressure to push the bolt carrier back. This leads to a number of issues. Since the gas tube is small if a foreign object becomes lodged into it can jam the system.
Another issue is the issue of hot gas hitting the bolt carrier and reducing bolt carrier life.
A Gas Piston Systen where a short tube connects the barrel to a gas piston. The piston is connected to the bolt carrier and pushes it back instead of having the hot gas pash the bolt carrier back. Most rifles(with the notable exception of the US M-16) in service use this system and its generally considered to be more robust and dependable.
| Quote: | | Man, what are those freaky guns from Survival? All I want is some defense and a light deer rife. |
If you live in California just get a used Mini 14 and have accuracy systems modify it. With the exception of the AK's any good .223 rifle will cost you around $1,000. If you buy a used mini 14 and have it modified it will probably cost you that much.
Of course if you're tight on funds and not commited to using .223 I would recommend an SKS. They can be had for approximately $200. Go with a Jugoslavian or Russian SKS this gun uses the 7.62x39 catridge, perfect for deer hunting.
Even though the SKS has a fixed magazine you can reload it in less than four seconds with a stripper clip.
The SKS is also very easy to maintain and use. However I had problems with my Chinese SKS the rear sight fell off I would recommend a Russian or Jugoslavian gun.
Of course it is possible to mount a scope on the SKS,I used a receiver cover scope and it sucked. The scope mount needs to be drilled into the gun itself.
Like this Choate Scope Mount . Although you could mount it yourself its probably best to have a gunsmith mount it for you.
The good part about the SKS is the cost by the time you buy yourself the gun, the scope mount(assuming that you have access to a drill and the skill to use it) and a cheap scope you're in business for $400. |
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alokin
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 24, 2007
Posts: 787
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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| oh my god am I happy that guns are not allowed here! It makes live so much easier. |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1025
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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Alokin: I am happy that you are happy. You are entitled to your opinion. May you and yours never need to touch a firearm. Accept the fact that we on this side of the pond are different than you are. We have a shared but different history. We have a healthy distrust of the state. We connect individual gun ownership with liberty and security. Your experiences have caused you to arrive at a different conclusion.
As the price of fuel increases your need to come in contact with us gun toting Americans will diminish. Fewer Americans will be making the trek across the great pond as the dollar diminishes. I suspect fewer Europeans will be coming this way unless of course Europe decides to rip itself apart again as it did in the last century.
The United States Supreme Court has deemed the right to bear arms is an individual right. That’s it, game over. Guns are here to stay. So relax and let the young man find out the information he needs to know to join the ranks of millions of other responsible gun owners. |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1243
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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| alokin wrote: | | oh my god am I happy that guns are not allowed here! It makes live so much easier. |
Where do you live? I'm not aware of any European country where guns are totally banned.
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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jlw61
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Sep 03, 2007
Posts: 614
Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Guns |
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| alokin wrote: | Why a gun? But it maybe difficult if everyone around you owns a gun, but you. I always lived in countries were it is forbidden to have a gun (which is FAR better and LOTS safer).
I you want to hunt I guess that there will be a lot more people doing the same and wildlife population will decline. IMO it is easier raising some rabbits. |
Thank you for the obligitory anti-gun message.
Why is it that there is always somebody who has to put in their "image of dire consequences" when someone asks a simple question about guns, tobacco, or alcohol?
Do you tell people to buckle up when they talk about driving to the store? Do you warn them bicycles are dangerous and you're risking death to use one? Do you call motorcycles "donorcycles"?
Get a fraking life.
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When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking |
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