Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13128 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
CarlosFerreira wrote:
So, do you think there will be a major exodus to the wilds and the rest to be largely left for the nature? If that's true, I can see plague in the horizon. A tightly-packed, energy starved society doesn't predict anything good.
I also expect people to move to the cities when times get tough. Moving to the city is the current trend worldwide these days, and this has led to the megacity, something which isn't supportable without cheap energy. The largest cities of the past were around a million people, and these tended to be in areas where farming was possible around the city, to support it. This isn't possible in most places now because the best farmland has been covered by suburbs.
My fear is in the future with so many people packed into these giant cities, when services such as sewage and water treatment begin to break down due to lack of energy, diseases - typhoid ,cholera, and others - will break out, killing large numbers of people. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Ludi wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
So, do you think there will be a major exodus to the wilds and the rest to be largely left for the nature? If that's true, I can see plague in the horizon. A tightly-packed, energy starved society doesn't predict anything good.
I also expect people to move to the cities when times get tough. Moving to the city is the current trend worldwide these days, and this has led to the megacity, something which isn't supportable without cheap energy. The largest cities of the past were around a million people, and these tended to be in areas where farming was possible around the city, to support it. This isn't possible in most places now because the best farmland has been covered by suburbs.
My fear is in the future with so many people packed into these giant cities, when services such as sewage and water treatment begin to break down due to lack of energy, diseases - typhoid ,cholera, and others - will break out, killing large numbers of people.
Yes, that's my idea too. Spanish flu, anyone?
So, I was thinking: go rural is the way to go. Small, local communities with a focus on local production and some trade for goods. That would be the more rational idea. It would endanger forests, clearly. And a local production economy results in less investment in services and culture, therefore increasing birth rates. In search of a balance, but still the more rational approach, sounds better than going to the big city to starve or die of disease.
On the other hand, if going to the cities if the less rational idea, I'm kinda agreeing with you that's what people will do.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13128 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
CarlosFerreira wrote:
So, I was thinking: go rural is the way to go. Small, local communities with a focus on local production and some trade for goods. That would be the more rational idea. It would endanger forests, clearly.
It needn't endanger forests. Many parts of the world have enough arable land to provide for villages using something like permaculture or biointensive or Natural Farming, which takes less land and includes trees in the plantings, which can be trimmed for fuel.
There are parts of the world where there are now simply too many people to spread out without destroying any wild areas that may be left. I honestly don't know what to do with those areas except provide all the family planning services people can use, and to reduce suffering as much as possible during a population reduction. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Ludi wrote:
There are parts of the world where there are now simply too many people to spread out without destroying any wild areas that may be left. I honestly don't know what to do with those areas except provide all the family planning services people can use, and to reduce suffering as much as possible during a population reduction.
I understand what you mean, and I believe that too. But current political positions view medical support as anathema, which doesn't bode well for a wide social support of people going to that area. I've quoted the case of Haiti, and there's also the case of Easter Island, where intense deforestation lead to severe population decrease. Of course, my hope is it won't happen in a place like a continent, because the forest area is simply too much. Or is it?
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
CarlosFerreira wrote:
So, I was thinking: go rural is the way to go. Small, local communities with a focus on local production and some trade for goods. That would be the more rational idea.
Post peak many more small towns will be swept away by the same monocrop-agribusiness that has already destroyed rural American economy. The owners will not welcome visitors, certainly not squatters, but gladly accept serfs. And they'll have a ready market among the teeming masses in the cities, for gruel and mush.
CarlosFerreira wrote:
It would endanger forests, clearly.
You can't farm forests, only nip at their edges. They are too steep, are on the wrong side of hills (not enough sunlight), have the wrong soil, or wrong climate for farming. . Once again people without cheap diesel can not get into, or out of, real forests.
CarlosFerreira wrote:
And a local production economy results in less investment in services and culture, therefore increasing birth rates. In search of a balance, but still the more rational approach, sounds better than going to the big city to starve or die of disease.
True, but then birth rates will be countered by increased death rates, as they used to be.
CarlosFerreira wrote:
On the other hand, if going to the cities if the less rational idea, I'm kinda agreeing with you that's what people will do.
Desperate people make desperate choices--often for handouts. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13128 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Of course, my hope is it won't happen in a place like a continent, because the forest area is simply too much. Or is it?
Many parts of Africa have been horribly deforested for fuel, and because of bad grazing practices. Some areas are trying to restore the trees, but it is very difficult because of war, refugees, and that kind of upheaval. People can't very well be planting and caring for trees if they're worried about being killed any minute.
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Thanks for the GBM link.
How about the FSC? I suppose an initiative like this (something the essentially certifies the product you're buying comes from a sustainably-managed forest) would be OK for a while, but doesn't address the fact that poor, misinformed or uninvolved people don't care:
Also, I suppose things like this don't have a chance when Peak Oil hits hard: they'll be viewed as unimportant, and simply cease to exist. _________________ Environmental News and Clippings:
http://www.google.co.uk/reader/shared/10279555364898696533
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13128 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Also, I suppose things like this don't have a chance when Peak Oil hits hard: they'll be viewed as unimportant, and simply cease to exist.
I'm afraid you're right,even though it is vitally important to the survival of people to preserve forested land. It's important from a completely pragmatic point of view. But very few people apparently are aware of the importance of forests in the hydrologic cycle (source of fresh water), even in places where higher education is common (such as the US). It's just not something people are taught, apparently. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 5695 Location: Body in OK, Heart in TX
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Ludi wrote:
But very few people apparently are aware of the importance of forests in the hydrologic cycle (source of fresh water), even in places where higher education is common (such as the US). It's just not something people are taught, apparently.
Very true. In my hydrometeorology class in the late 1990s, our professor was emphatic about how a water crisis was looming and did a good job making us aware of it. Yet I don't believe we discussed the role of forests much, if at all. _________________ "Every junkie's like a setting sun..." - Neil Young
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Many who live close to them are very much aware of the role trees and forests play in regulating and preserving water cycling, preventing erosion of precious soils, providing fuel...
It is my recolection that the term "tree hugger" originated from developers disparaging characterization of poor, traditional Indian women who chained themselves to the trees of a local forest to try to prevent their being torn down for sale and development by international entities. The women knew that loss of the trees meant loss of the entire cycle that supported their families, though they didn't have the fancy names for it.
I still bristle when people use the term "tree hugger" disparagingly, even in jest.
Last edited by dohboi on Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I disagree with earlier statements that we will need diesel or machinery to remove forests - early North American European Settlers on the East Coast and here in Ontario were able to remove 90+% of the original forests all without modern equipment. Also, most of the current woodlots are regrowth - there are very few surviving small stands of Carolinian forest left in Ontario and everything else is replant. A similar approach was taken over much of the East Coast and Ohio valley areas. Some replanting has been planned but for the most part regrowth has occured recently not due to our foresight but because coal, oil and gas were more efficient fuels.
As Carlos has referenced the Dominican republic is a good example but using military patrols as is done there to protect the woods also relies on fuel...
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I traveled to a business and industrial center here in Portugal this weekend a district called Aveiro. Plenty of forests along the way, many pine trees clearly affected by the nematode already, and many areas where large squares have been cut and were replanted with eucalyptus. Eucalyptus grows quickly and is highly value in that area, where paper factories are located. We were all getting along fine until the moment I asked about recycling of paper. Man, the forest owners were mad at me! They want yields from the forest and were objecting on a pure moral base: "Don't ruin my business!". Just mine the land! FSC? Never heard of them... _________________ Environmental News and Clippings:
http://www.google.co.uk/reader/shared/10279555364898696533
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:02 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Pure Market at work: find incentives to keep the forests, in Brazil. Best news I had this week.
Quote:
The Amazon Fund, launched on July 31st by Brazil’s president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, leans on an idea that has become accepted wisdom among conservationists: to stop the Amazon rainforest from shrinking, a way must be found to make preserving it more lucrative than slashing and burning it. It is not yet clear who will be eligible for grants from the fund, but early indications are that it will give money to projects proposed by NGOs, scientists or by the governments of the states that are home to the forest. They might include supporting traditional rubber tappers and gatherers of Brazil nuts, or carefully managed forestry.
The best part of this is that, if it work, it can replicated elsewhere with success. If the forest is perceived as a source of wealth, chances are it will be less depleted. _________________ Environmental News and Clippings:
http://www.google.co.uk/reader/shared/10279555364898696533
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 574 Location: Canterbury, UK
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
VMarcHart wrote:
CarlosFerreira wrote:
If the forest is perceived as a source of wealth, chances are it will be less depleted.
It's a pity one needs to feel cold hard cash in hands to perceive forests as source of wealth.
I certainly agree. Somehow this model is all very nice, but the condition for preservation is profit or the perspective of profit. As soon as someone come up with a way to achieve a higher or swifter profit from that patch of land, the problem re-starts. Also, we don't know if it will work - the cost of protecting the forest from being destroyed might bite into business margins, ruining the plan.
Even so, in the lack of a moral command to protect the Amazon forest, this model isn't the worse that the Brazilian government could come up with. And it might bring much needed revenue to the people in the area. It wasn't (just) a love for nature that drove the Tokugawa shogunate to protect their forests; it was the feeling of urgency, the knowledge that filing to do otherwise would bring a much dreaded future. _________________ Environmental News and Clippings:
http://www.google.co.uk/reader/shared/10279555364898696533
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 2 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
