Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 436 Location: Espinho, Porto, Portugal
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: The Depletion of Forests
Forests, as most people know, are extremely important to humans everywhere. And I don't just mean in a tree-hugger, nonsensical pseudo-environmentalist way; no, they are the hinge of many economical processes.
Indeed, forests are both a source of valuable economical inputs (for instance, wood) and sinks for pollution (like CO2). In short, trees in a forest take the CO2 in the atmosphere and transform it: in wood, oxygen, and other important products. Forests also help avoid soil erosion, keeping the nutrients in place and stopping soil from being dragged away by rain water.
Everyone know this, and everyone agrees how important it is to preserve forests. Anyone who knows the realities of Haiti compared to Republica Dominicana understands the importance of forest preservation (both in the island of Hispaniola: the former is a barren wasteland that's been deforested to nothingness, causing severe difficulties to inhabitants; the latter has seen its forests protected, and is today better equipped to provide for its citizens - see Jared Diamonds "Collapse" for a discussion of this case).
Problem is, as Peak Oil hits hard, people will be turning more and more to forests for energy and soil to grow food on, because if the predictable decrease in agricultural yields resulting from less and less petroleum-based fertilization.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Humans are nothing more than glorified bacteria. All of the vaunted intellect averages to zero on the macro scale. For example, cutting down the Amazon for food is a self-terminating process. The current slash and burn and then move on after a couple of years as the ash fertilizer wears off is obviously not rational use of the forest. Similarly, oil palm plantations for biodiesel are inane squandering of something which is much more valuable. It looks like the worst case scenario is going to be closely followed since the world is hopelessly unprepared for fossil fuel production stall and decline. By destroying forests, agriculture will be disrupted in some locations so all the talk about acreage released for agriculture is out of touch reality.
Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I have held the opinion that as oil depletes wood will be used more and more until there is nothing left. If we look at whats going on right now and follow it to its logical end then 200 years now what humans are left will be living in a wasteland that covers the entire earth. Will people let it go that far, who knows.
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
As long as people aren't personally involved in managing their own woodlots or unless we have very high enforceable standards, I think we may have troubles. A lot of commercial loggers typically want the best bang-for-the-buck, so to speak, and tend to high-grade harvest i.e. take the best and biggest trees. This leaves lousy trees to propogate the species. Guess what the next generation forest looks like?
It's not difficult to harvest wood sustainably but it does involve the concept of delayed gratification. It's hard for companies with mega-buck equipment not to want to high-grade cut their forests. For me it's analogous to small, organic farmers who typically don't have large equipment costs to amortize and therefore take better care of their land.
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 436 Location: Espinho, Porto, Portugal
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:03 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I share most of the opinions in here: badly unprepared society, driven in short-term profits, and a gross lack of knowledge (or a outrageous amount "don'tcareness") by politicians.
News from last week say all of Portugal's territory is now considered infected. Predicted rates of devastation amount to 60% country-wide, 100% in some areas. Governmental environmental agencies and state secretaries shrug off. The best the forest management can say is that forests contribute to 3% GDP, and that investment will be necessary.
This amounts to a calamity. An already impoverished country among the EU, Portugal is throwing away an invaluable natural resource. The disease has been known for years, but no one wanted to do anything. Besides government and land owners, who either didn't give a damn or allowed it to progress in order to have the authorization to cut down trees, either for selling the wood or to sell the land for construction, I blame the environmental nuts, crying for GW and grossly overlooking that the problem resides in the source (greenhouse gas emissions) AND in the sinks (more trees clear more CO2 quicker)
So, will Portugal become EU's Haiti? What are the economic incentives for forest preservation and sustainable exploration?
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
Serial_Worrier wrote:
Insanity. Thank god American forests are still thriving.
Really?... got some facts to back that up? That is, unless, you're just being facetious. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
The best way to save tropical rainforests is to help local populations modernize rapidly.
Modernisation - that is low fertility rates, the development of a middle class, the availability of a mobility infrastructure and the extensive exploitation of natural resources - is the key to ecosystem preservation.
Europe's forest resource and its extent have declined for the past two hundred years. Only in the last two decades it has begun to increase again. This is due to the wealth brought about by economic prosperity and modernity.
The worst we can do is to keep the people of the tropics in a blissful state of poverty and misery, which is what some crazy greenies want us to do.
Not only is this bad for the environment, it also leads to war (not me saying this, but scientists from the Centre for the Study of Civil War (CSCW), from NTNU’s Department of Sociology and Political Science, and from the International Peace Research Institute (PRIO) in Norway and Sweden.
Does working for a better environment really lead to peace?
By using an internationally recognized technique for measuring a country’s environmental sustainability –“The Ecological Footprint” – the researchers were able to compare these numbers with statistics on armed conflict during the same period.
Their conclusion may seem paradoxical—lands where resources are heavily exploited show a clear connection to a lack of armed conflict. Or alternatively, nations troubled by war during the research period had lower exploitation rates of their natural resources. The findings give researchers solid empirical support for stating that environmental scarcity is not the reason behind violent conflict.
--A higher Ecological Footprint is negatively correlated with conflict onset, controlling for income effects and other factors, the researchers say in their article, published in the peer-reviewed journal Population and Environment.
-- Of course people fight over resources, that’s not our argument. We believe, rather, that we have a strong scientific case against the Neomalthusian model, says Binningsbo.
Of course, these are counter-intuitive findings, so the populace will not really be interested in the science. The populace wants to hear that Greenpeace is good for people. Whereas in fact the contrary might be true. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 796 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I haven't thought of that. Interesting. My 2 cents:
We're already seeing forests being converted to farming and ranching, and farms being converted in IC fuel source. Deplorable. This trend will continue until the so-called and so-predicted die-off begins. I guess nobody knows when that will be.
Once population declines, I reckon less fields for food and IC fuels will be necessary, and a slow and gradual re-forestation will happen.
Too simplistic, I know. I need to think more about this, but good thread.
I read in another book that the tight position of all the wooden houses in the big citys in the Middle Ages and the use of fire for cooking or forging led to big frequent fires => to rebuild the citys, wood was needed.
If this played a bigger part than to build tunnels in mines and to melt iron and everything, i don't know.
Joined: Sep 03, 2005 Posts: 74 Location: Germany, State M-V
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
A little complement:
Quote:
In the middle of the 18th century Europe faced an acute shortage of wood, and as a consequence, an energy crisis. The response to the energy shortage was the increasing use of an inferior fuel: coal. The change from wood to coal as major energy source had far reaching consequences
In the same book (mentioned above) it was said that sometime in the 18th century the science of forestry was established.
So the appearance of the forests today - at least in (western?) Europe - is all indebted to the consumption of energy.
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
I see less forest damage post peak.
People today are not equipped to live in forests without cheap petroleum.
All modern industrial forestry whether in the tropics or north, depends on a lot of diesel fuel and very expensive road construction and maintenance. While a dirt timber road appears simple, it is really an exercise in modern engineering. No company wants to lose a $1,200,000 payloader.
I believe there will be mass exoduses away from the wilds into to the cities. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Joined: Aug 26, 2005 Posts: 1008 Location: "Mad as Hell !"
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
pstarr wrote:
I see less forest damage post peak.
People today are not equipped to live in forests without cheap petroleum.
All modern industrial forestry whether in the tropics or north, depends on a lot of diesel fuel and very expensive road construction and maintenance. While a dirt timber road appears simple, it is really an exercise in modern engineering. No company wants to lose a $1,200,000 payloader.
I believe there will be mass exoduses away from the wilds into to the cities.
Which is why I moved to the wilds. Then again my forestry needs are rather simple, 10 - cord for the winter. _________________ The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
Joined: Jul 02, 2008 Posts: 436 Location: Espinho, Porto, Portugal
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Re: The Depletion of Forests
pstarr wrote:
I see less forest damage post peak.
People today are not equipped to live in forests without cheap petroleum.
Actually, one of my concerns is the quick, non-sustainable consumption of forests as a source of fuel.
So, do you think there will be a major exodus to the wilds and the rest to be largely left for the nature? If that's true, I can see plague in the horizon. A tightly-packed, energy starved society doesn't predict anything good.
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