Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
I'll see if I can get more information on this. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
The science behind HFI has been well documented. Electrolysis, itself, is well understood and it has been known for over thirty years (since a 1974 study by the Jet Propulsion Lab of the California Institute of Technology for NASA) that the addition of hydrogen to fossil fuels, burned in internal combustion engines, will increase the efficiency of that engine. This premise has been validated by a number of papers published by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The concept is valid with any fossil fuel (diesel, gasoline, propane, natural gas) or bio-fuel (biodiesel, ethanol) though it is most effective in diesel engines. Among other, more subtle effects , the presence of the hydrogen alters the initial stages of the unfolding combustion dynamic, altering the kinetic chemical pathway which the combustion follows 1. The net effect is to alter the time at which maximum heat energy is released relative to the power cycle, increasing the adiabatic efficiency of the engine (typically a modern diesel engine runs around 40% efficient - an increase of only 4% in the adiabatic efficiency results in a 10% decrease in fuel consumption!).
Note that the results are not simply caused by the displacement of a small amount of fossil fuel with an equivalent volume of hydrogen. Rather, the increase in efficiency is gained by getting more useful work out of the fossil fuel itself, resulting in less energy wasted in the form of heat, light and sound.
A lot of these products are being marketed to fleets of heavy trucks and seem to be promising around a 10% mileage improvement.
To me, it's a much tougher sell to market something to a trucking company that involves a large investment and a significant retrofit effort based on a claimed ROI than it is to individual consumers if it doesn't actually work.
The fellow I talked to about the system was the owner of a heavy truck repair shop who had signed up as a retailer for one of these companies. It seems to me that if it didn't work, he would sell one, the guy would complain, and that would be it, he wouldn't sell any more, since a $10,000 bolt-on that doesn't work is a good way to run off ALL of your customers.
I'm always skeptical of any mileage improvement device, but this technology appears to work well in some applications (i.e., apparently the improvements are greater in diesel engines).
I'm interested in what anyone else thinks on this topic, though.
Anyone got any links demonstrating that these devices DON'T work? _________________
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
MonteQuest wrote:
I'll see if I can get more information on this.
Why do the inventors think it's the Hydrogen and not the Oxygen they are introducing that is making the difference? _________________ 100% of the electricity needed for this post was generated by ME.
<p>
<A HREF="http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/green_virtual_gym.html">Posted from a Pedal Powered Computer</A>
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4337 Location: Graceland
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
SolarDave wrote:
MonteQuest wrote:
I'll see if I can get more information on this.
Why do the inventors think it's the Hydrogen and not the Oxygen they are introducing that is making the difference?
Whatever it's producing is a combustible gas. I saw a demonstration.
It's just mixing a little of this with the normal air intake to accomplish whatever it is that it is accomplishing.
I can think of many reasons that this wouldn't work, would be dangerous or would create conditions well out of spec for the engine it's bolted on to, but the best review is probably from someone who has actually used one.
This is a sidenote, and more of a general observation, but I have found that when it comes to mileage improvements, the most honest person in the world will lie.
For example: "What kind of mileage do you get with this thing?"
"Oh, high twenties."
Translation: "I once got 26.8 mpg on a tank." _________________
Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
Who knows if its the HH or the O, but I have built one and made the gas and it burns well. I am working now on striping down a weed eater engine to use as a test bed for both HHO and HHO/gasoline oil mix. If it goes anywhere I'll let you all know. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
hhogen wrote:
The most important HHO test data validation is from a third party automotive test center.
That company looked familiar, so I poked around and found this. They also done "testing" for ecocleanfuel.org, but ecoclean's site links to a website that has...
Quote:
A Future Without Limits!
And appears to now be selling "CALORAD"...
Quote:
Our goal was simple: put the most ground-breaking Wellness Product of all time, (CALORAD®), in the hands of dedicated distributors; teach them to under-promise and over-deliver; and, pay out significant amounts of money for effort and performance.
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
In any event, hydrogen could work in the same way batteries work for HEVs, just not nearly as well. I'd guess that if it was one properly one of these systems could reduce idle and off-load fuel consumption, but at the same time, simple changes to gearing/effective displacement in order to maximize engine load and efficiency would day way better, since there aren't huge energy conversion losses. The basics apply regardless, and in this case while it could increase efficiency, I doubt it would have any effect given the makeup of most of the "hydrogen" systems I've seen. Making it roll farther, move through the air easier, and operate more efficiently is all that's needed for better mileage.
In any event, to the OP, good start in terms of the thought process, all ya need to do is continue in order to figure out why precisely this would have little to no impact on fuel economy. Driving habits otoh can result in a doubling of mileage depending on the driver. I'm guessing the increase could be mis-attribution and/or scamming... _________________
Joined: Jul 18, 2008 Posts: 4 Location: California
Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
[quote="yesplease"]
hhogen wrote:
The most important HHO test data validation is from a third party automotive test center.
That company looked familiar, so I poked around and found this. They also done "testing" for ecocleanfuel.org, but ecoclean's site links to a website that has...[quote]
My initial impression of the testing company is that they are not a fly by night operation. I was able to find these two links.
I haven't really come up with much about the automotive testing company in regard to complaints against them. I'll keep poking around though as I'm curious about them too. _________________ hho generator
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
The hydrogen in the hydrocarbon we call gasoline is being burned
in the engine to make every bit of power it requires plus the large
amount of energy that gets wasted primarily as heat. When you
load the electrical system (alternator or generator) with a hydrogen
generating system, it's energy demand immediately become an
additional mechanical load on the engine via the alternator belt.
I.E. The electrical load of the automobile is directly reflected to the
motor as it changes with lights, stereos, battery charging, or
in this case making hydrogen. Converting the hydrocarbon to
mechanical energy, then to electrical energy, then to hydrogen
stored energy, and then adding it to the hydrocarbon to be
burnt in the same system as additional fuel points to actually
being a net loss energy wise. If you just have to try this, you
might see if adding a Viagra to the water will make it hard
enough to beat the laws of physics. Like thong underwear,
you might try this discreetly to see how it goes so you don't
have something to live down after you have made a spectacle
of yourself. (The folks who wanted to try it but didn't have
the stones will mock you the most usually.)
I haven't really come up with much about the automotive testing company in regard to complaints against them. I'll keep poking around though as I'm curious about them too.
I wouldn't say they're fly by night, but IME they tend to test stuff for fly by night companies in a manner that isn't exactly rigorous, to say the least... _________________
I'm sure all of you will just claim Popular Mechanics is in cahoots with "them". _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Joined: Jul 18, 2008 Posts: 4 Location: California
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
Apparently the U. S. Department of Transportation thinks hydrogen injection is viable technology as they mention it quite a few times in this document.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
Of course in H2 injection and Nitrous the energy for creating the gas is external to the engine so it makes sense that it could add energy. I seriously doubt the claims of 30% increase given all the losses in conversion just creating the H2.
-G _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1780 Location: Republic of Texas
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen assist question for our resident experts
MonteQuest wrote:
I have a friend who says a guy he knows very well has added an electrolysis device to his car that runs off of the battery current to produce hydrogen which he adds to the fuel mixture.
He claims a 30% increase in MPG.
Your friend is deluding himself.
If it makes him happy, leave him be. _________________ Conform . Consume . Obey .
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