Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Culling the herd Explain your logic
In an ecosystem where a species is overpopulated and humans are able to interviene. We step in and kill off some of the population to bring it back insync with it's surroundings. This is a standard practice all over the world and it is an accepted practice. It is the most logical solution to the problem at hand.
It doesn't matter if it's rabbits or turkeys or any animal for that matter. You can discuss it freely on how your going to do it, by how much your going to do it, and what methods your going to use to do it.
No one gets upset. People understand it needs to be done. No big deal.
How come when you put humans in the spot of the species that is in overshoot everything changes. It's still the same problem.It still has the same solution. None of the dynamics of the core problem have changed.
Because I can look at the problem clinically and treat it as a simple logic problem. I get called amoral,inhuman,delusinal,and they are going to take me away. Which aren't even close to the person I am.
So I ask explian your logic to this simple logic problem? If it's logical to cull back the numers on any species of animal that is in overshoot. Why is it not logical to do so for humans? We are all bound to this planet by the same laws. _________________ Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
Last edited by HEADER_RACK on Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
It's the same reason that someone who kills a rabbit is called a hunter and someone who kills a person in a murderer. Deer get agitated if they hear you talking about culling them. You just don't care so much about their opinion because you don't see them as being your peers. I don't think that there is a sane reasonable approach to killing large numbers of your own species. The only person that could really carry out such a thing would be someone who was insane and got enjoyment from it for it's sheer destructiveness. Others will talk, but nothing more. Trying to assert that you're going to kill 4 billion people out of love for your species is just so much tripe. _________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
smallpoxgirl wrote:
It's the same reason that someone who kills a rabbit is called a hunter and someone who kills a person in a murderer. Deer get agitated if they hear you talking about culling them. You just don't care so much about their opinion because you don't see them as being your peers. I don't think that there is a sane reasonable approach to killing large numbers of your own species. The only person that could really carry out such a thing would be someone who was insane and got enjoyment from it for it's sheer destructiveness. Others will talk, but nothing more. Trying to assert that you're going to kill 4 billion people out of love for your species is just so much tripe.
If a general sacrificed a batallion to save a divison. Would he be called a murderer?
It's not that I don't care about their opinion because I do. I just look at it as if my dumbass could figure out that it's the logical answer, why is it hard for everyone else to see it. Regardless if I don't like the answer. Just because I accept and know what the answer is doesn't mean it wil come to pass.
If I had a button that I could push and kill off 4 billion people. Could I do it? No I couldn't. My cynical arse would probably be converted the second that button was put in my hand. You're right it would take an insane person to carry it out.
I could kill a person if they were a threat to me or my family be sure of that,but I couldn't kill a bunch of innocent people straight up. I could however, be on a team to discuss and how to implement a planned die-off. Like the scientist who worked on the A-bomb. I could help build it knowing full well what it would be used for,but I couldn't push the button to drop it.
I could work on it because of my love for our species. In the fact that knowing it was for the greater good for my species to survive as a whole. Though at the time most wouldn't see it that way. Because I can ponder ways to do it to give the best possible outcome for our species does that make me inhuman? _________________ Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:44 am Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
If I had a button in my hand that I could push that would make 4 billion people instantly drop dead at random, which could very well include myself, I would push it. It would be the most calculatingly rational thing I've ever done.
When salvation paradoxically lies within proximity of one's own destruction, you'll only survive if you die.
It's a fundamental solution to a fundamental problem. I think it's better if we do it in a planned, rational initiative instead of waiting for the inexorable laws of nature to play it's cruel hand and do it for us.
This question of whether one could kill others in order to serve a greater purpose came up in Death Note as well, which is a great series incidentally.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
Golgo13 wrote:
If I had a button in my hand that I could push that would make 4 billion people instantly drop dead at random, which could very well include myself, I would push it. It would be the most calculatingly rational thing I've ever done.
When salvation paradoxically lies within proximity of one's own destruction, you'll only survive if you die.
It's a fundamental solution to a fundamental problem. I think it's better if we do it in a planned, rational initiative instead of waiting for the inexorable laws of nature to play it's cruel hand and do it for us.
This question of whether one could kill others in order to serve a greater purpose came up in Death Note as well, which is a great series incidentally.
Have you really thought about? Thought long and hard on what you would be doing? It wouldn't be cartoon fantasy. You could push a button and kill a 3 month old baby girl? A child that just lost her first tooth waiting for the tooth fairy. A daughter telling her father she loved him for the very first time. A son and father going to his first T-ball game. A teenager about to get his very first kiss. A son just getting his drivers licence.A boyfriend and girlfriend about to make love for thier very first time. A couple at the alter just before they say I do.
All of that times billons. You could do that? Snuff out their lifes at that precise instant. _________________ Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: Re: bad spelling explains all
mos6507 wrote:
If you can't spell herd properly you probably deserve to be one of those who gets culled.
Damn I sure did LOL, All humans make mistakes
Edit - there fixed that for you. You care to chime in on how to fix overpopulation to? We made that mistake also. _________________ Nothing is more dangerous than a man with nothing left to lose but has everything left to gain.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
HEADER_RACK wrote:
Have you really thought about? Thought long and hard on what you would be doing? It wouldn't be cartoon fantasy. You could push a button and kill a 3 month old baby girl? A child that just lost her first tooth waiting for the tooth fairy. A daughter telling her father she loved him for the very first time. A son and father going to his first T-ball game. A teenager about to get his very first kiss. A son just getting his drivers licence.A boyfriend and girlfriend about to make love for thier very first time. A couple at the alter just before they say I do.
All of that times billons. You could do that? Snuff out their lifes at that precise instant.
Ok you got me. After thinking about it for awhile, I decided I wouldn't do it. Although probably not for the reasons you may suspect.
The reason I wouldn't do it is because nobody would have known what caused it and we could very well end up right back in the same boat again in the future. By stopping the natural dieoff due to limits to growth, noone learns the valuable lesson.
I figure if we're going to pay 2/3rds the Earth's population then we sure as hell should learn a valuable lesson from it at the minimum.
Also the people who do survive the dieoff are most likely going to be those that have the right mentality and many who made their own preps in advance. I wouldn't want those people to be wiped out at random. Not that I can fault the blissfully unaware public for being uninformed either, but if someone's gonna go then it's going to be them.
Ideally we would make the right choices and there wouldn't have to be a dieoff, but it's too late for that. We didn't do them then and we aren't doing them now, so we're just gonna have to pay the piper.
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
HEADER_RACK wrote:
Have you really thought about? Thought long and hard on what you would be doing? It wouldn't be cartoon fantasy. You could push a button and kill a 3 month old baby girl? A child that just lost her first tooth waiting for the tooth fairy. A daughter telling her father she loved him for the very first time. A son and father going to his first T-ball game. A teenager about to get his very first kiss. A son just getting his drivers licence.A boyfriend and girlfriend about to make love for thier very first time. A couple at the alter just before they say I do.
All of that times billons. You could do that? Snuff out their lifes at that precise instant.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13179 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Culling the heard Explain your logic
HEADER_RACK wrote:
It's not that I don't care about their opinion because I do.
How does your family feel about your desire to kill them? How do your friends feel about it? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6625 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Culling the herd Explain your logic
Perhaps, when conditions get grim enough and individual lives painful enough, the herd will start culling itself voluntarily. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Last edited by Heineken on Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:32 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Culling the herd Explain your logic
Heineken wrote:
Perhaps, when conditions get grim enough and individual lives painful enough, the herd will start culling itself voluntarily. Edited to reflect revised quotation: Jack
The thing is, die-off is not certain. This is the crux of the issue. If we could prove it was certain, then fair enough. If we can't, we should be concentrating our energies elsewhere.
Briefly, Monte's "proof" is based on Liebig's Law and the fact that oil is a phantom resource, the use of which means we have exceeded carrying capacity (by definition).
However, if we had gained access to oil when there was only a million people and our population had shot up to five million people before the oil ran out, we would not have exceeded carrying capacity purely through the use of a phantom energy source. So the use of a phantom energy source does not imply overshoot by definition.
So, therefore, the question is "What is the genuine carrying capacity of the earth?". Again, Monte uses non-proofs to back up his argument. The point is that we don't know. We may have exceeded carrying capacity or we may not. The lurid black and white thinking of the die-off crowd is simplistic and harms people's efforts to prepare humanity for what's to come, as it can induce apathy amongst those who are taken in by it.
So please stop saying that a die-off is inevitable. Given our political masters, it may well prove the case that die-off will occur. However, this is not necessarily due to Liebig's Law, but due to short-sighted leadership. We, as individuals, need to short-circuit these crooks and prove what can be done at a local level. We need to show the way forward. Whether it helps avoid a die-off is hard to say. At least we can say we tried our best. _________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Culling the herd Explain your logic
Heineken wrote:
Perhaps, when conditions get grim enough and individual lives painful enough, the herd will start culling itself voluntarily.Edited to reflect revised quotation: Jack
Nah screw that idea... that way only the poor and dispossessed get culled while the rich cream it.
I say go for another huge war or revolution let the chips fall where they may.
Bugger going peacefully, I'll crack someones skull for food if Im starving. The ones that want to die peacefully can go and die in peace, I only want the violent pissed off apes left.
Just thought I would add that Im not particularly interested in a fair fight either. Theft first then picking on someone weak or waiting for someone strong to be at a point of weakness e.g. asleep, tired, stuck somewhere etc... If attacked run unless you think you can easily win and score some loot. You get the picture.
Joined: Mar 22, 2005 Posts: 44 Location: Oklahoma USA
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Culling the herd Explain your logic
Quote:
It is the most logical solution to the problem at hand.
Very true. From a naturalistic worldview it is a very logical line of reasoning. This is true even if the reason for the "culling" is something different than overpopulation...say, for instance, improving the gene pool by culling those deemed to be inferior or "less fit". In fact a few world leaders in recent history have followed this line of reasoning to it's natural conclusions.
Again, you are 100% dead on in saying this is the logical conclusion....only you did not state your presuppositions....I just inferred them from the conclusion.
Quote:
Why is it not logical to do so for humans?
The only logical explanation that can be lodged against yours requires us to back up and examine the ground from which we are reasoning. Naturalism must be rejected completely for your reasoning to fail. I will not hi-jack this thread by arguing for a different ground, though.
So, from a supernaturalist, thank you for being courageous enough to follow the logic of naturalism through to it's inevitable conclusion. Although, naturalists can't logically support the concept of "courage"....they must borrow supernatural presuppositions to do so. From reading these boards for the past 3 years...I know that won't bother many folks in the least.
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Culling the herd Explain your logic
Most of human history is replete with culling herds of undesirable humans. Wars were fought for that very reason, the losers were wiped from the face of the earth or forced to endure slavery, which decimated them just the same. That said, what you are suggesting is nothing new, in fact it's the norm. Our recent history in the oil age has given us a "soft heart" and a belief in inalienable rights for all humans. If resources become scarce enough, there will be die off, of that you can be assured. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
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