Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
Interesting interview with Naomi Klein, over at Democracy Now.
Quote:
Wall St. Crisis Should Be for Neoliberalism What Fall of Berlin Wall Was for Communism
As the world reels from the financial crisis on Wall Street and the taxpayer-funded $700 billion bailout, we spend the hour with Naomi Klein on the economy, politics and “disaster capitalism.” The Shock Doctrine author recently spoke at the University of Chicago to oppose the creation of an economic research center named after the University’s most famous economist, Milton Friedman. Klein says Friedman’s economic philosophy championed the kind of deregulation that led to the current crisis. [includes rush transcript]
We need broad perspectives on this crisis. Even though I think Klein's assessment is more based on the principle of hope, than on realism.
Capitalism as such will not immediately disappear, but the particular kind of deregulated free market fundamentalism that has reigned supreme after the fall of the Soviet Union - that kind of laisser faire capitalism is clearly coming to an end.
There are however many alternatives, like China's hybrid model, with strong top-down, state-run banks and financing institutions.
In any case, Klein's view is full of hope and optimism. And that's nice to read. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
You may or may not understand that these crises are the inevitable result of the legalized fraud of fractional reserve banking, compounded by the government cartel of central banking, but regardless you cannot deny that so long as the government sets by decree interest rates and maintains the exclusive monopolistic power to create money, that we do not have anything close to a free market.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
[quote="lorenzo"]Interesting interview with Naomi Klein, over at Democracy Now.
Quote:
Wall St. Crisis Should Be for Neoliberalism What Fall of Berlin Wall Was for Communism
i'm not a fan of Amy Goodman ... but that is a very astute
metaphor that Naomi Klein came up with ! it is a watershed
event. _________________ http://www.LASIK-Flap.com/ ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
mattduke wrote:
You may or may not understand that these crises are the inevitable result of the legalized fraud of fractional reserve banking, compounded by the government cartel of central banking, but regardless you cannot deny that so long as the government sets by decree interest rates and maintains the exclusive monopolistic power to create money, that we do not have anything close to a free market.
and there has never really been a true marxist or communist system either. so what? close enough, if you ask me.
it's time to put a stake into this free-market dragon and bury it, before it buries us.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
mattduke wrote:
You may or may not understand that these crises are the inevitable result of the legalized fraud of fractional reserve banking, compounded by the government cartel of central banking, but regardless you cannot deny that so long as the government sets by decree interest rates and maintains the exclusive monopolistic power to create money, that we do not have anything close to a free market.
The government hasn't created money (other than coins) since the days of Lincoln, has it? _________________ "Who knows what the Second Law of Thermodynamics will be like in a hundred years?" - Economist speaking during planning for World Population Conference in early 1970s
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
What we "had" and I think "had" is the correct term, was the worst mix of Capitalism and Government possible. What we had was Governmnet insurance under all banking practices thus even the riskiest behavior was "insured." That's an overly simple take on waht happened I will admit but there is a grain of truth in there.
Let's couple that with a second fact from the past. In the 1980's S&L crisis some small S&L's were allowed to fail while the biggest were declared "to big to fail." When this happened it set off a big wave of mergers and acquisitions as everyone got as big as they oculd get as fast as they could. Why? They all wanted to be "to big to fail" which meant unlimited government insurance for their companies. This was nothing but capitalism taking advantage of stupid short-sighted government. BTW some people warned of this in the late 80's but were ignored.
IMHO, what we need is a mix of government insurance on deposits so that depositors won't lose in a failure, and limits on how much banks can off-load risk on to each other. That way, if a bank did stupid things and failed we could let if fail and not have to worry.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
lorenzo wrote:
Interesting interview with Naomi Klein, over at Democracy Now.
Quote:
Wall St. Crisis Should Be for Neoliberalism What Fall of Berlin Wall Was for Communism
As the world reels from the financial crisis on Wall Street and the taxpayer-funded $700 billion bailout, we spend the hour with Naomi Klein on the economy, politics and “disaster capitalism.” The Shock Doctrine author recently spoke at the University of Chicago to oppose the creation of an economic research center named after the University’s most famous economist, Milton Friedman. Klein says Friedman’s economic philosophy championed the kind of deregulation that led to the current crisis. [includes rush transcript]
We need broad perspectives on this crisis. Even though I think Klein's assessment is more based on the principle of hope, than on realism.
Capitalism as such will not immediately disappear, but the particular kind of deregulated free market fundamentalism that has reigned supreme after the fall of the Soviet Union - that kind of laisser faire capitalism is clearly coming to an end.
There are however many alternatives, like China's hybrid model, with strong top-down, state-run banks and financing institutions.
In any case, Klein's view is full of hope and optimism. And that's nice to read.
Laissez-faire capitalism should have been laid to rest a long time ago, but apparently much of the US never learns.
China has done a good job of taking the country from pathetic to viable but I think Europe is maybe a better model for us. _________________ “In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.”
[Fran Lebowitz
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
StuckInPhilly wrote:
China has done a good job of taking the country from pathetic to viable but I think Europe is maybe a better model for us.
Yes but....
China
has polluted and pillaged its lands for profit (via western commerce - currently faltering) - often stripping lands from multi-generational owners (for the common good of course).
is no longer food independent
is increasingly dependent on foreign energy sources and raw materials
brutally crushes civil protests and filters free speech at every level
sells organs from executed prisoners (on demand a la carte) tried for nothing more than political crimes...
Oh yes what a paradise....
-G _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
mattduke wrote:
Please stop confusing the government hijacked banking system with the free market and capitalism.
The USA is synonymous with capitalism in practice just as the USSR was synonymous with communism in practice. Neither represented the ideal theory but what works on paper is a whole different animal when it comes to the real world. This is the Berlin Wall for USA capitalism.
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
gnm wrote:
sells organs from executed prisoners (on demand a la carte) tried for nothing more than political crimes...
Better yet, they shoot them full of plastic, dissect them, and send them to America, where you pay $35 a person to take your family to see them posed in mimicry of a Heisman trophy. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
gnm wrote:
StuckInPhilly wrote:
China has done a good job of taking the country from pathetic to viable but I think Europe is maybe a better model for us.
Yes but....
China
has polluted and pillaged its lands for profit (via western commerce - currently faltering) - often stripping lands from multi-generational owners (for the common good of course).
is no longer food independent
is increasingly dependent on foreign energy sources and raw materials
brutally crushes civil protests and filters free speech at every level
sells organs from executed prisoners (on demand a la carte) tried for nothing more than political crimes...
Oh yes what a paradise....
-G
I was certainly not claiming it is a paradise.
In our development we have done out own number on free speech and raping resources.
There is some nasty, brutal control that has to be wielded to get a massive country to decrease it's population which is the main reason that it has improved. _________________ “In the Soviet Union, capitalism triumphed over communism. In this country, capitalism triumphed over democracy.”
[Fran Lebowitz
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
Novus wrote:
mattduke wrote:
Please stop confusing the government hijacked banking system with the free market and capitalism.
The USA is synonymous with capitalism in practice just as the USSR was synonymous with communism in practice. Neither represented the ideal theory but what works on paper is a whole different animal when it comes to the real world. This is the Berlin Wall for USA capitalism.
The central bankers have been defeated in the United States before. They can be defeated again.
Joined: Oct 27, 2006 Posts: 824 Location: Soviet Canada
Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Wall Street Crisis = Fall of Berlin Wall for Capitalism
Capitalism will be around as long as some people have money, and some people need money. Usury, like prostitution, is one of the oldest professions.
Klein mentioned neo-liberalism, not capitalism. Perhaps she should have offered a description of neo-liberalism in a paragraph or two, to avoid some confusion.
I like and respect Noami Klein's views, and ideas.
I think she is engaging in a bit of hyperbole, and histrionics here, however.
I don't think it's an accurate analogy. Sounds clever, though.
It's my view that we are on the apex of a pendulum swing here. After the chips have fallen (and they will fall far) people will gather them again, and the economy will find some equilibrium. A healthier mix of regulation in the financial services industry, and hopefully better oversight of central banking. I would like to see less interventions from a central bank, or treasuries, IMHO. I think it's fair to say that all these stick saves have exacerbated the size of the mess.
Many of these entities should have been allowed to fail from the get go. That pendulum swing would have had a shorter arc.
I think that Ron Paul may be on to something. _________________ "Some people are like Slinky's. They don't serve a useful purpose, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs."
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