Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
So when I was negotiating with the builder on options, I told them I don't want any natural gas and I want everything to be based off of electricity. Water heater, home heating and cooking stove. I also want the windows substituted with "Energy Star" compliant windows. The lady was shocked. She said she would looking into whether that was even possible. That was last weekend. ...
I plan on installing solar panels on this house. I picked the model with a lot of angled roof surface and I selected a location which will place that roof surface facing the angle of the sun most during the day.
Did I understand right that you're planning on running an electric heat pump, electric water heater, etc off solar panels? I hope you've got a lot of money, cause your probably looking at a $50-100K solar system to do that. Be a heck of a lot cheaper to incorporate a bunch of passive solar heating in the building from scratch. Maybe a masonry heater.
Joined: Aug 17, 2004 Posts: 3541 Location: 39° 39' N 77° 77' W or thereabouts
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:30 pm Post subject:
Kingcoal wrote:
As for electric heat, keep one thing in mind. Coal fired power stations are only about 30-40% efficient. Add in the losses in transport and you’re down to about 20%. Sure, electric heat on the consuming end is 100% efficient, but when you trace it back to the power plant it's a fantastic waste of heat. An oil or gas furnace at 80% efficiency is a much more conservative use of energy.
BabyPeanut, I thought you were smart enough to figure this stuff out
The biggest benefit of GHPs is that they use 25-50% less electricity than conventional heating or cooling systems. This translates into a GHP using one unit of electricity to move three units of heat from the earth. According to a report by Oak Ridge National Laboratory, statistically valid findings show that the 4,003-unit GHP retrofit project at Fort Polk, Louisiana, will save 25.8 million kilowatt-hours (kWh) in a typical meteorological year, or 32.5% of the pre-retrofit whole-community electrical consumption. This translates to an average annual savings of 6,445 kWh per housing unit. In addition, 100% of the whole-community natural gas previously used for space conditioning and water heating (260,000 therms) will be saved. In housing units that were all-electric in the pre-retrofit period, the GHPs were found to save about 42% of the pre-retrofit electrical consumption for heating, cooling, and water heating.
Use as much oil as you want, we're beyond hope anyway
Did I understand right that you're planning on running an electric heat pump, electric water heater, etc off solar panels? I hope you've got a lot of money, cause your probably looking at a $50-100K solar system to do that. Be a heck of a lot cheaper to incorporate a bunch of passive solar heating in the building from scratch. Maybe a masonry heater.
I am not expecting the solar system to cover the entire electrical needs. It is more of a supplimental system. I don't think a pure solar system can meet the power requirements for most houses unless the entire home is designed from scratch for that purpose.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1636 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject:
We have a system in Washington that allows a homeowner to average their utility payments over the year. We have a high efficiency gas heater (90%) but the payments were up to $200 per month, every month.
We went through the house this fall with an eye for reducing that payment. We added switches to all ghost electrical loads and we turn them off when not in use. We are using the wood fireplace insert more, keeping the thermostat down to 58 during the day and we turn off the furnace by 4 PM. Of course we're wearing more clothes inside.
The good news is that we've reduced our monthly payment to $145 per month. I work out of my office at home and I really don't notice the difference, but I sure like that lower monthly utility bill. _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Last edited by DomusAlbion on Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
The good news is that we've reduced our monthly payment to $145 per month. I work out of my office at home and I really don't notice the difference, but I sure like that lower monthly utility bill.
I've been in my current place for six months. Lowest bill so far $31 total for gas and electric. Highest $50.
I replaced all my lights w/ compact flourescents and keep my thermostat set at 50 degrees. I also live in a somewhat milder climate than DA.
Joined: Dec 08, 2004 Posts: 1636 Location: Nez Perce Nation
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:42 pm Post subject:
smallpoxgirl wrote:
I replaced all my lights w/ compact flourescents and keep my thermostat set at 50 degrees. I also live in a somewhat milder climate than DA.
SPG makes a very good point. Fluorescent bulbs make a big difference. They cost more up front but last much longer and use less electricity. We've replaced most of our incandescent bulbs but still have to make another pass over the house and identify other areas where we can save on power consumption. The house is 2500 sq ft so I'm sure there are other spots we can fix to save some more. One problem is that the house still has some older single pane glass windows. I replaced the upstairs windows two years ago with double pane glass. The house is over 70 years old, has very thick walls (brick) but it needs more insulation in the attic.
We probably will not do any more to upgrade the R factor of the house but instead do some curb appeal work because we'll be selling it within a few years. _________________ "Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock
Heat misers
High gas bills lead Iowans to look for savings
By FRANK VINLUAN REGISTER BUSINESS WRITER
Natural gas prices are slowly coming down, but you might not notice it from your bill.
The average residential bill for January for natural gas and electricity was 12 percent higher than in January 2004, according to MidAmerican Energy.
The average bill last month was $157.87, the utility said.
Homeowners: Before you faint when you compare that with your bill, it's important to note that the average is skewed by apartments, which typically have much smaller bills for natural gas and electricity.
The price of natural gas on the open market has come down from the peaks that followed Hurricane Ivan in the fall, but current prices are still higher than they were a year ago.
Many Iowans are coping by adjusting thermostats and replacing old, inefficient heating equipment.
Skywalker Payne , 54, moved with her husband from Texas to Des Moines in 2000. She said it took awhile to adjust to Iowa winters, but now they think nothing of turning down the heat.
"We hardly ever put our thermostat above 68 during the day," Payne said. "At night, we have it down as low as 61."
Payne also participates in budget billing. The program allows consumers to pay the same amount each month, based on average energy use from the previous year. Payne said her energy expenses haven't increased because "it really hasn't been that cold."
The Energy Information Administration said Thursday in a weekly report that "unseasonably moderate temperatures" have contributed to falling natural gas prices. The amount of natural gas in storage is 20.9 percent higher than the five-year average, and spot prices in the past week fell 11 cents to $6.11 per million British thermal units.
The high prices early in the heating season prompted some people to make adjustments to help keep bills from climbing.
Leilani Shaw, 44, of Redfield installed new windows and doors last year, anticipating a cold winter. She said her two-story home, built in 1900, needed to be made more energy efficient.
"I can definitely see a difference in the bedrooms that have new windows," she said.
At Plymouth Congregational Church in Des Moines, when the faithful stream in, heat slips out. Bob Mann , the church's director of administration, realized that church and community meetings during the week contributed to energy expenses that reached $15,000 in January. The budget for the entire year is $83,000.
In Sunday's church bulletin, Mann told members about new weather stripping and dialed-down thermostats. He's also seeking other suggestions.
"Our intent is not to scale back" activities, Mann said. "It's part of being a Christian community, to share what you have."
Drake University is seeing savings from an $11.5 million campus-wide equipment upgrade, which included new boilers, ducts and pipes. Energy use has been cut in half, said spokesman Daniel Finney. The new equipment is expected to eventually pay for itself in savings.
"The equipment was just outdated," Finney said. "The boilers were more than 40 years old."
Drake also saved money by not locking in its natural gas supply at a high price, Finney said. Large business and industrial customers can contract with a supplier or marketer to buy fuel for a specified period of time. The customer does not buy the fuel directly from MidAmerican but does pay the utility a delivery charge. Drake had entered such contracts before, but university officials thought prices were too high last year and declined to lock in a price.
Iowa Health System, which owns three Des Moines hospitals, bet the other way and locked in for a more expensive rate than is now available, said facilities manager Dan Garrow . When the contract expires in April, Garrow said, he will shop around for better rates.
"It's really a guessing game," he said.
The Des Moines school district was ahead of the game and locked in a price before hurricanes in the South damaged energy operations, leading to a spike in prices, said Duane VanHemert , the district's executive director of facility management.
VanHemert said schools also are saving money with computerized systems that automatically turn off lights and turn down the heat in unoccupied areas.
Overall, natural gas prices are still higher than they were a year ago, and those higher prices take their heaviest toll on Iowa's poor, said Jerry McKim, director of the state's Bureau of Energy Assistance. The office oversees the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, or LIHEAP. McKim expects more than 87,000 households will be awarded help this year, the highest number in at least 14 years.
McKim expects the problem will be worse next winter. President Bush's proposed budget would cut LIHEAP funding by $84.8 million, with Iowa losing $1.5 million.
McKim was in Washington, D.C., earlier this week for a conference of energy assistance officials. He also met with members of Iowa's congressional delegation to make the case for more money. He said that even though the mild winter so far has diverted attention from LIHEAP, demand continues to grow.
"The need for the program is becoming less connected to severe weather, and it's more reflective of the growing gap between income and energy prices," McKim said.
"I think I notice the gasoline prices more than the natural gas. I would say that's the biggest fluctuation. . . . My house isn't that big so it doesn't really bother me. Plus, I use budget billing, so I spread out the cost through the year."
- Linda Raymond, 60, Indianola
"Plastic on the windows, keeping the thermostat down. I've always done it. I've got a fireplace, and I'm burning wood. I'm just keeping it hot enough to keep that thermostat from kicking on."
- Victor Shields, 46, Hartford
"I have noticed the price. We have installed new windows, new front door and back door. We did it because we heard the prices were going up, and we thought we better get some new windows. We live in a 1900 home, so it was in need of upgrading anyway."
- Leilani Shaw, 44, Redfield
"I've been on budget billing, and they haven't raised my budget billing in over a year. . . . I was thinking that come winter, they were going to raise it real high, and they actually dropped it $1. So we've been real fortunate.
- Skywalker Payne , 54, Des Moines
"It seems the energy prices have been the same as last year. I haven't really noticed it much. . . . Our heat bills haven't really been that much different.
- Mike Honsey , 27, West Des Moines
Heating fuels survey:
JAN. 18 FEB. 14 CHANGE
Natural gas $6.14 $6.03 -$0.11
Propane $1.24 $1.24 no change
No. 2 heating oil $1.56 $1.60 +$0.04
Source: Iowa Department of Natural Resources
We are hitting about 180 gas/electric combined. I have heard of friends in farmhouses around here paying almost $600!!! for 1 month. Adn the winters here are pretty mild. My sister just bought a house in another state and she's flirting with $200 gas only.
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject:
Why don't people use Kerosene heaters? It only costs $120 per month to heat my home to 62 during the winter, and no cost incurred during the late spring-early fall. Granted, they are technically for outside use only, but if you crack a window about 1/2 inch, you won't asphixiate yourself with CO. _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
I paid $200 a month in my small 1100sq ft house and I keep the thermostat at 60F and I live in a climate more temperate than Des Moines.
I had the attic insulated when the roof was totally redone two years ago and had a more efficient gas furnace installed and a programmable thermostat (which is really kind of worthless because I don't have a routine schedule). and I haven't saved much. Unfortunately, I didn't get a dual heating system because enlarging the chimney size would have been prohibitively expensive.
I know the utilities make a 60% or higher profit on the gas charge when they lie and say they are selling the gas at cost. Plus they charge for transmission and other fees like taxes.
I know I will have to sell this house in the very near future because I can't justify the cost of the capital expenditures to upgrade my old home.
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 75 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject:
k_semler wrote:
Why don't people use Kerosene heaters? It only costs $120 per month to heat my home to 62 during the winter, and no cost incurred during the late spring-early fall. Granted, they are technically for outside use only, but if you crack a window about 1/2 inch, you won't asphixiate yourself with CO.
Wow - are you serious? This seems like the sort of solution to PO problems that many of us fear - like pulling off catalytic converters on cars in LA. What is the effect of longterm low grade CO expsoure? (is there any?)
Joined: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 72 Location: Massachussetts
Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject:
JBinKC wrote:
I paid $200 a month in my small 1100sq ft house and I keep the thermostat at 60F and I live in a climate more temperate than Des Moines.
I had the attic insulated when the roof was totally redone two years ago and had a more efficient gas furnace installed and a programmable thermostat (which is really kind of worthless because I don't have a routine schedule). and I haven't saved much. Unfortunately, I didn't get a dual heating system because enlarging the chimney size would have been prohibitively expensive.
I know the utilities make a 60% or higher profit on the gas charge when they lie and say they are selling the gas at cost. Plus they charge for transmission and other fees like taxes.
As an HVAC technician I routinely advise customers on energy efficiency. The first bit of advice I have for you is to program your thermostat. Set it back 8 degrees when you are sleeping at night. If the house is empty during the day set it back 8 degrees then also. Leave curtains open on the south, east, and west facing windows to allow solar heat in. Even on partly sunny days you will get considerable solar gain.
With heating costs goin up it is a very wise idea to consider installing low-E skylights in the home. This is called "passive solar heating". Properly sized and designed passive solar can reduce heating bills significantly.
I know I will have to sell this house in the very near future because I can't justify the cost of the capital expenditures to upgrade my old home.
_________________ Advocating car-reduced living, most trips done by bicycle, and loving being free from automobile over-dependency
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 12:48 am Post subject:
Xelat wrote:
k_semler wrote:
Why don't people use Kerosene heaters? It only costs $120 per month to heat my home to 62 during the winter, and no cost incurred during the late spring-early fall. Granted, they are technically for outside use only, but if you crack a window about 1/2 inch, you won't asphixiate yourself with CO.
Wow - are you serious?
Yes. It is still a little cool in here, but it is cheaper. I just have 5 blankets on my bed, because it gets turned off at night, (unless it is below freezing, then I leave it on low to take the chill off).
Xelat wrote:
This seems like the sort of solution to PO problems that many of us fear - like pulling off catalytic converters on cars in LA.
What? I am not understanding your analogy. I just use it because it is much cheaper than using electric heat. I only use the furnace so the pipes don't freeze. (temp is set to 50 on thermostat).
Xelat wrote:
What is the effect of longterm low grade CO expsoure? (is there any?)
"What are the long-term effects of the condition?
Long-term effects of CO exposure depend on the extent of the poisoning and how quickly it is treated. Long-term effects may include damage to the brain, heart, or lungs. There may also be short-term memory loss. These effects usually improve over time but may be lasting." Discovery Health
" Inhalation of CO (small amounts over a long time or large amounts over a short time) can cause carbon monoxide poisoning: Carbon monoxide binds to hemoglobin molecules in the blood, preventing these molecules from carrying oxygen to the cells of the body. Oxygen deprivation, known as hypoxia, can result.
Symptoms of CO poisoning include difficulty breathing, pinker-than-normal skin, dizziness, dilated pupils, weakness, and unconsciousness. If CO exposure continues, death or brain damage may result.
In mild cases, a victim of CO poisoning may recover when exposed to fresh air. In more severe cases, victims may require administration of oxygen. Long-term effects of CO poisoning may include various kinds of paralysis, motor complaints, and memory problems including anterograde amnesia." Memory Loss Online
Not very safe, (which is why I crack a window when it is lit), but it is very cheap for heating my home considering the only other option for heat is the electric furnace. _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
Joined: Nov 10, 2004 Posts: 75 Location: Los Angeles
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:
ksemler wrote:
Xelat wrote:
This seems like the sort of solution to PO problems that many of us fear - like pulling off catalytic converters on cars in LA.
What? I am not understanding your analogy. I just use it because it is much cheaper than using electric heat. I only use the furnace so the pipes don't freeze. (temp is set to 50 on thermostat).
In the bad old days in LA the smog was so bad that people would get sick upon arriving in the city and their eyes would water for days. Some sneezed black. Then along came a series of fixes to the problem most notably emissions standards for cars and the catalytic converter. Having a catalytic converter on your car and a smog test is mandatory in California. However the catalytic converter reduces fuel efficiency. So people have complained about it - and if things get bad enough they might actually be able to get rid of the law and start tearing these things off. And then we will become a city full of asthmatics . . . the smog is still bad as it is - sometimes you cannot see the outline of the mountains clearly.
So you taking CO risks is of a similar nature. The stuff on CO exposure was scary by the way. Be careful dude.
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