How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Sep 13, 2006 Posts: 268 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
I've read about this before. Going to go lookup the ratios for future reference.
I'm assuming we're talking about small amounts of bleach, but does prolonged exposure to drinking water in this manner have any undesirable effects? Or at such low concentrations is the amount of bleach negligable? _________________ Can solar power save us from fossil fuel depletion? Too late? Time to start a Garden!
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
At the appropriate concentrations its no different than your average city water. After the chlorine reacts most of it will be normal salt and remaining free chlorine will either evaporate or react with the container etc. The best thing to do would be to treat the water with chlorine and then filter it. The good thing about chemical treatment - chlorine, iodine etc.. is that it will kill viruses. Most filters will not remove viruses even if they remove bacteria and parasites.
-G _________________ All right, you primitive screw-heads, listen up!
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 637 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
Ratio is one drop chlorine bleach to 1 cup water, 2 drops if muddy. Kills bugs, viruses, not so hot on other contamination. A filter/ carbon and chlorine bleach together works fairly well. There are biological filters than use just sand.
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1654 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
I used to do some homebrewing, and after using bleach for a while I switched to iodine. Made the beer taste really weird if too much got into any particular bottle (you don't decontaminate the beer itself, just the bottles before filling); but it worked all right.
I've used this stuff when on long-term primitive camping trips. It works fine. From one stream the infestation was actually visible, and you could see the stuff working as the tiny bugs died.
Make no mistake with this stuff, all: at this stage in the history of industrial civilization, there is now virtually no raw water source in the world that is not contaminated. When in the wild with no disinfectant, make certain you boil all your drinking water. Otherwise you risk infection from (among other things) Giardia, which will last 4-6 weeks, make you thoroughly miserable and, ironically, dehydrate you terribly. It's a killer, of both humans and wild animals -- and what a rotten way to go! Fire has moved up the necessities hierarchy; it's not only a shelter and food necessity now, but also a water necessity. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
The only good think about the increased radiation in the sunlight is that actually can help to purify water, using this method here _________________ Stocking up on popcorn
Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: water, purification tablets and storage
My thoughts on Water Purification Options
Storage and treating collected water
* Bleach
* Iodine Tablets
* Alcohol
* Silver container / coins?
"Pioneers put silver coins in the wooden water casks to keep the water free from the growth of bacteria, algae, and other organisms, and placed silver dollars in milk to keep it fresh."
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f02/web2/ctraversi.html
Silver is often used in water purifiers to prevent bacteria growth inside the purifier. (Otherwise a ceramic filter would need to be boiled now and then...)
http://www.geocities.com/ceramafrique/tour/A.htm
Production
* Filters - many filters in stores are good for heavy metals and are portable.
* Boiling Water - kettle and a small wood stove
In my personal experience, most people native to an area who process their own water simply boil it, let it cool and then they have a big pot of water for the day or boil a little at a time in a kettle. A small kettle and a ham stand will work, or three stones, or a nice propane stove...
Quote:
The correct amount of time to boil water is 0 minutes. Thats right, zero minutes.
"According to the Wilderness Medical Society, water temperatures above 160° F (70° C) kill all pathogens within 30 minutes and above 185° F (85° C) within a few minutes. So in the time it takes for the water to reach the boiling point (212° F or 100° C) from 160° F (70° C), all pathogens will be killed, even at high altitude."
* Simply make coffee - Boiling the water kills bacteria and fresh or used coffee grounds absorb 90% of heavy metals from the boiled water. Tea also works. Washed out old grounds can be reused. So carrying a little decaf or regular coffee with you is perhaps the simplest method for producing potable water. This is a pioneer era technology which studies have shown to be effective.
Further on in this forum I posted some info on making ceramic syphon water filters. They are very easy to make and much more convenient then a cup shaped filter.
I made this portable ceramic water filter that removes bacteria. Crushed limestone could be added to the upper tank to remove arsenic in areas were arsenic poisoning is endemic.
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic34377.html
* Alcohol - 1% or 2% strength when mixed is enough and won't get you drunk. I haven't tried this, but some campers on this site were mentioning how they bring some high concentration alcohol with them camping as fuel / fire starting and for water purification. Think of it this way, 1 gallon of high proof alcohol can make 50-100 gallons of potable water. Not bad and alcohol can be used and traded for many other things.
* Solar still
* Solar heat pasteurization
This is just a solar oven full of black water bottles and works very well.
* Still - A kettle attached to a long length of wide pipe or dryer tubing with a pot at the other end makes a very simple effective still.
Foreknowledge
* Hydrological Maps
"Ground Water Atlas of the United States" - available from the USGS and map suppliers.
http://capp.water.usgs.gov/gwa/
* Water Test Kit - Buy a water test kit and test the local water sources in your areas. Streams, ponds, puddles, ground water... If they are ok on heavy metals, just boil the water for parasites.
More on removing heavy metals
Removing heavy metals or excess fluoride?
If you are worried about heavy metals there are water purifiers that are good with that. There are commercial water purifiers, methods to make large sand filtration purifiers. You can even mix coffee grounds and clay, fire it in a campfire in a cup shape, and make a nice water purifier. The clay/carbon absorb heavy metals and filter out parasites. Boiling the water with fired clay balls may be another method of pulling out heavy metals, but that's something I'm still researching and I haven't done water tests with yet or written a guide...
Joined: Mar 19, 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: [Water] General
Regarding plastic, are normal bottles or storage containers safe for things like solar stills as mentioned above, or even for long-term storage? Does the higher quality plastic really not leech into the water at all?
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: [Water] General
I’m not sure if this helps but be careful of some milk jugs, as they are degradable – we have a small freezer where we keep ice in old milk jugs.
I have put so many chemicals in my body that I worry more about a closet filled with leaking jugs more than about a little plastic in the water – I suppose stainless steel containers would be safest if money wasn’t an object. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6371 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: [Water] General
Seems someone said something about the power going out and having no water.
Remember that if your water lines are not pressurized for whatever reason, the suction down the well or from a municipal system will suck dirty water containing potentially harmful critters into your system from the stock tank, garden hose, or any tiny leak in the plumbing underground.
After the power was out in places around here for one to twenty days a spot check found 30% of the wells contaminated – don’t know the percentage before but…
Gotta have bleach or the dry stuff. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: Feb 09, 2006 Posts: 69 Location: Maastricht, the Netherlands
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: [Water] General
a couple of points;
as has already been mentioned a weak alcoholic drink is pretty safe. In medieval times beer was brewed at fairly quick rates from grains that were used 3 times. Each time they were used the alcohol levels were lower and the weakest beer was given to children.
Some pathogens can be killed by direct sunlight. If you were to boil and then leave the water in a clear container on your windowsill for 6 hours before drinking it will be safer and for very little extra effort.
Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: [Water] General
Pops wrote:
I’m not sure if this helps but be careful of some milk jugs, as they are degradable – we have a small freezer where we keep ice in old milk jugs.
My jugs last about 15 months of regular use. The previous owner of my house left one behind in the basement, with a marker-written date of 1985. It is still in good condition, although I am just assuming that it started out as water.
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