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Peak Oil is a Myth
Geology; Reserves; Oil Fieldsor the "the peak oil cult exposed"

A poster to RunningOnEmpty2 writes that Peak Oil will cause a recession and thus curb demand.

His rant is posted on Geocities

The "Peak Oil" is a Myth message board


"Peak Oil" is a Myth!
3/11/04
The entire "peak oil" issue is purely psychological. It is created by those people who get a thrill out of scaring others. To me, this fact is painfully obvious. What we have here is a classic case of pseudoscience. All of the charts, graphs, and references to thermodynamics seem compelling at first glance. For the uninitiated, a first glance is all it takes to become convinced. I can see that an entire "e-culture" has been built up over the years by a handful of wanna-be prophets. For about a week, I, in fact, was taken in by the seductive arguments put forth by Jay Hanson and Company. For about a week, my hopes for the future were dashed. But then, a funny thing happened to me. It took me a few seconds to realize what a fool I had been. In "Good Will Hunting", there was a scene in which Will (Matt Damon) had a field day by psychologically attacking his therapist, Sean (Robin Williams). For some reason, Will was able to take jabs at Sean's subconscious, and this caused Sean to have troubles sleeping. But then, it took a moment for Sean to realize what a fool he had been, and he promptly feel asleep like a baby. The simple fact he realized was that Will was just a kid. He knew that Will had no first hand knowledge of the experiences that lead to true wisdom. This is exactly what happened to me yesterday. I suddenly realized how childish are the minds of those who ring the "peak oil" alarm. It comes down to this simple fact: these alarmists have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. I am not even talking about the issue of oil. I will whole-heartedly grant the thesis that global oil production will peak sometime this decade. However, all of the commentary that results from this thesis is pure propoganda.

I believe that this entire "peak oil cult" is caused by two things: 1) an a priori misanthropy, and 2) a fundamental ignorance of the realities of the market economy. To me, the first point is immensely apparent. The founders and followers of "peak oil" simply do not like being around their fellow human beings. This causes them to naturally seek out theories in which the human race will be horrifically destroyed. And as long as these theories hold up to their level of "scientific" scrutiny, then those are the theories that they will start to obsess over. But since obsessiveness always eats away at one's insides, the "peakers" then set their sights on the public (who is seen to have caused the problem in the first place). The obsession then turns into scaring the daylights out of all of the "offending parties" (average people) who take the time to give the issue a listen. Once you combine the psychological disorder just outlined with an ignorance of the realities of the market economy, then there you have it: PEAK OIL!

The ignorance of the market economy hinges around absurd notions of the concepts of supply and demand. The mantra that I kept hearing goes something like this: "Demand for oil/energy will keep rising, and supply will not be able to keep up with demand." Here's my response to that: "Calm down, dear child, everything will be okay. Now let me tell you a story about something called the market economy. Whenever demand increases relative to supply (or supply decreases realtive to demand), the price rises. Rising prices send this signal to the consumers: you better start demanding less! Then magically, demand falls!!!"

The "Oil Peakists" are consistently muddled about the real world effects of rising prices. Whenever essential goods become too expensive (meaning "paper assets" fall in relative value), this has the effect of depressing all inessential economic activities. The simple concept to understand is that price directly affects demand. Price is what causes humans to be rational. When prices are too low, people don't think too much thought about buying things. But when prices start to rise, this is what gives people pause and causes them to reflect. In the global marketplace, people just can't demand things willy-nilly. They need hard earned money to be able to create demand. If they don't have enough money, then they obviously cannot create demand. For example, most citizens of Malawi cannot demand/buy much in the way of anything. They can be said to be economically depressed. Increasingly, however, the Chinese have been able to start demanding things from the global marketplace. If, however, prices rise high enough, then they will no longer be able to create such demand, and they will hit an economic recession. When economies are in recession, the demand levels are less than they previously were at the height of the previous economic expansion.

So... once oil supplies start to come down, the price will rise accordingly. This will cause an economic recession, and viola... you have less demand! It is in this period of economic recession that people will start to re-evaluate where to invest their time, money, and energy. Obviously, one of the places people will invest in is sources of energy other than oil.

You see, the "Peak Oilists" are able to suck us in by diverting our attention from the reality of the economic order via seductive pseudo-scientific arguments. They say there is no rational order underlying the global economy, and then they throw around high sounding phrases like "the laws of thermodynamics" and "energy returned on energy invested" and the like. They draw a bunch of charts with slopes pointing straight down into oblivion in order to make us think, "Gee... that looks scary!" And then they use that good old Saganism: Billions and Billions (as in the numbers of us that are soon to horrifically meet our maker). Again, "Peak Oil" is all a matter of 1) an a priori misanthropy, and 2) a fundamental ignorance of the realities of the market economy.
Posted on Friday, March 12 @ 17:02:34 PST by admin
 
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Peak Oil is a Myth

 
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"Peak Oil is a Myth" | Login/Create an Account | 43 comments | Search Discussion
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Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by joekacz on Thursday, March 18 @ 02:36:46 PST
(User Info ) http://cuspofcivilization.blogspot.com/
I like how this guy says that Peak Oil "is a classic case of pseudoscience", and then he goes on to say that "magically, demand falls".

Well if that's what he thinks, he can just witness the magic while he's sitting at home because he can't get any gas for his SUV.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by tomswift on Saturday, March 20 @ 09:13:58 PST
(User Info )
I like this guy he makes his statements with much force and certainty, however he has no data to back up his claims. I do not know his background, but from his writing it seems that he may have a degree in english with a minor in political science, and no science engineering or geology.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Saturday, April 10 @ 02:36:53 PDT
you are a stupid person. you are the reason americans are looked upon as ignorant. There will come a time when oil peaks- you can deny it all you want to- and when it does it wont be an easy problem to fix. It will start out by prices rising slowly on almost everything bc it takes energy to get it to the stores. Dont look for the gov to save you- theyll just enstate more militarization of this country. NO ENERGY then NO ECONOMY Were looking at a blow to the human race- die-offs are coming. The smart and rich will survive, but the ignorant and poor will suffer/perish. Open your eyes to the problem- alternate forms of energy are going to help are oil dependent society- we use it in everything. Face it, were looking at a bleak future esp in America where democracy will give way to police state/empire in an attempt to control the pissed off public



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Wednesday, April 21 @ 18:51:11 PDT
This is all good and true except for the fact that humans as a whole are like sheep, and as long as we have leaders pushing us to use oil for everything, and as long as we keep breeding like rabbits and giving our six-teen year old children SUV's to drive around, the oil will be gone before we have a chance to do anything about it. Let's face it, we are being snowed by top of the ladder, and a majority of the public (especially America) doesn't care either way.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Thursday, April 22 @ 16:24:20 PDT
Peak Oil is coming. The Atlantic current is slowing down. The ice caps are melting. The ozone is being depleted. We are due for our next big asteroid. California is going to fall off into the ocean from an earthquake. Why do we get up in the morning? Humans since the dawn of time have been predicting the end. Keep saying we need to start telling everyone about Peak Oil. So in the morning I will tell everyone about peak oil, then for brunch I will cry about how the Atlantic current is shutting down due to desalination from our polar ice caps melting and our global climate is going to drastically change, for lunch I will talk about how we need to invest more money and time to detect asteroids that may hit the earth in the very near future, early afternoon is off to talk about seismic activity around the world and how the earth is ready to start seriously shifting her tectonic plates, diner time will bring up a couple of classics: Air pollution, ozone depletion, effects of deforestation, save the whales, solar flares, and who knows what else and by bed time they will be calling me chicken little. Maybe for my nite-nite prayer I will give a shout out to world peace. Keep hollering people... hey wait a sec aren't you guys some of the left over Y2K folks? Don't worry all you conspiracy theorists (or I guess this time you scientist or geologist and all around OPEC insiders especially you NON-Americans). We may not care right now, but after we get out of our monster SUV's with our bling-bling-a-swingin’ and notice that we are paying more at the pump and its starting to cut into our Big Mac fund we will bail you out and come up with a solution, but until then we are busy in Iraq trying to get their oil (and if you believe that there is this place in Brooklyn, New York that has a bridge and it's not nearly as expensive as a barrel or oil will cost you after we hit the aforementioned wall).



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Wednesday, May 12 @ 15:48:04 PDT
Spirited discussion…

Many valid arguments from both sides of the fence in here. I’ll see about creating forum section specifically for threads on debunking peak oil theory. I search out counter-points on peak theory aggressively myself, and believe a healthy dialogue is key to understanding any issue.

Regulars here already know my current thinking, but I think it is well to reiterate that the heart of peak theory speaks to a dramatic increase in oil price based on the decline of cheap oil production. No one should dispute that higher prices will curb demand, or that more expensive forms of oil will be exploited. While the world could curb demand substantially over a period of time, keep in mind that the majority of oil consumption is industrial, military, manufacturing, and private sector, in that order. So it’s one thing to say we can cut down on luxury oil uses, and quite another to say we will reduce the use of oil for industrial or manufacturing purposes.

I would posit that almost all of the points raised here are quite valid, minus the sarcasm, and in fact reinforce the concept that the end of cheap oil will have long-lasting effects on our world.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Friday, May 28 @ 04:38:35 PDT
This man is a cowardly idiot.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Friday, May 28 @ 22:12:48 PDT
what a dork !



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Friday, May 28 @ 22:18:12 PDT
very stupid ! do you come from the bush family ?<br /> you sure have a phd in economy, or perhaps in geology ?<br /> can you define what a calory is ?<br /> <br /> brillant minds have studied the subject for all their career. I suggest that you read about <br /> jean lahererre, colin j. campbell or richard heidberg or richard hubbert. or matt simmons<br /> they have FACTS and they do not pretend to have an OPINION.<br /> for every body :<br /> DVD : the end of suburbia<br /> ---<br /> al lot more needed than hollywood party movie !<br />



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Saturday, May 29 @ 01:09:05 PDT
I have to admit, this whole peak oil thing has really done a number on my hope for the future. My hope is further degraded especially when there are people like the author (of "peak oil is a myth") who dismiss valid arguments too easily. I'll list my counter arguments:<br /> <br /> 1) I don't think C. Campbell, Simmons, Aleklett, et al are alarmists who have "absolutely no idea what they are talking about." Indeed it seems that the author doesn't have an idea what he/she is talking about.<br /> <br /> 2) If peak oil concerned people are misanthropic, why would we be bothering? We see strong evidence that suggests a big problem in the near future and it is because we CARE both for ourselves and for humanity that we sound an alarm. Furthermore, I leave room for the possibility that what I believe is wrong but the evidence is more than sufficient to at least elevate the debate/discussion, and should not be handily dismissed by accusations of misanthropy. In other words, I think peak oil is a big problem so I want to raise awareness, not scare people.<br /> <br /> 3) The market economy has existed only in the regime of more or less increasing energy exploitating. The significance of the peak is that it will be the biggest discontinuity in terms of energy supply. I wasn't born yet, but I think the world had a tiny taste in the 1970's. The real global peak will be the 1970s on a much larger, much more permanent scale, I fear. So you're right, a recession will occur and demand might fall, but (and this is the big problem) we have no viable substitutes. So it will be very hard to prevent the recession from becoming a depression and possibly worse. The point is that we need to make the investments ahead of time. You don't put plywood on your windows in the middle of a hurricane, your don't build a wall of sandbags when the town is already flooded, and you won't be able to substitute for oil once supply is drastically reduced. <br /> <br /> 4) the demand for oil is very price inelastic. In other words, we are completely dependent on oil. For example, cigarettes have inelastic demand because we're addicted. Even with big price increases, demand falls slightly because we need that fix. But eventually (when price rises enough) people will get priced out of the market. <br /> <br /> I appreciate your having views on this subject but please do not be so hasty to dismiss what I see as highly credible and highly significant evidence and arguments.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Simon on Tuesday, June 01 @ 07:47:16 PDT
(User Info )
The writer doesn't realize that his classical<br /> "economic" analysis is irrelevant with respect to the<br /> oil depletion issue (Peak oil). Oil abundance has been understood to be the direct cause of world population increases, etc. Reduction oil supplies will result in much deeper effects than just the market. It has been shown in the literature, that "energy" has not been dealt with correctly by economic theorists.<br /> The main input of present day food production distribution and consumption processes is fossil fuels.The "how and where" of that "Big Mac" getting into ones gut.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Sunday, June 06 @ 16:35:49 PDT
You are absolutely right. Peak oil is subject to the laws of supply and demand. So here is what happens: Demand goes up, prices go up, demand goes down as prices get high enough to hit people in the only place it counts: the pocketbook. What you don't realize is this: Due to the immutable laws of thermodynamics, the supply-side shrinks relative to the demand side because oil is a finite resource. People will have to keep on using less to keep the prices down. Also, per capita usage of oil will shrink in the US as the 5 billion people now not using oil start wanting to use it. People's standard of living will keep going down as they use less and less oil as each supply and demand cycle trends downward. Yes, supply and demand will keep cycling, but in a downward trend as we go down the backside of Hubbert's Peak (much like the CO2 cycle has trended upward during its Summer/Winter cycle over the last 100 yrs as we pump more CO2 into the air). Then there will come a time when demand drops alltogether in the US as people abandon many of the oil-consuming luxuries as they learn to do without: By this time per capita consumption of oil will have 'spread-out' amongst more people in the world so those who were using 10 bbls/person now may be only using 2 bbls/person and those not using any now may be using 1 or 2 bbls/person. This will cause supply to constantly stay tight and will never let prices come down as those who have newfound wealth in developing counties have some money to buy a few oil-consuming luxuries: At this time Hubberts peak will smooth out on the backside. Eventually oil will become too expensive to use except for the most wealthy (which could then create an imbalance of power as whoever has money and oil might be able to subjugate the masses without oil and money....anyway thats the subject of another letter).<br /> <br /> Anyway, take off your economic blinders and look at the big picture: Oil is finite, is subject to laws of physics before it is subject to the laws of economics, population is increasing, and per capita consumption of oil on a global basis is rising. Putting all these together means Peak Oill will have to happen, and the laws of supply and demand will only apply to create a little wobble on the downslope of Hubberts Peak.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Sunday, June 06 @ 17:08:15 PDT
Are you trying to suck in the Peak Oilists by throwing around High sounding phrases like "A priori misanthopy". Looks like you are suffering from a fundamental ingorance of the realities of PHYSICS!



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Aaron (aaron@peakoil.com) on Sunday, June 06 @ 18:52:55 PDT
(User Info ) http://aarondunlap.net
Nothing like a rant to bring out the peeps.<br /> <br /> To me, the worst part of this is how weak the Peak Debunker's arguments are.<br /> <br /> This rant is actually one of the better arguments against imminent peak...<br /> <br /> yikes...



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Friday, June 11 @ 18:05:53 PDT
Labling the Peak Oil crowd as hating thier fellow man (misanthropy) IS A LOW BLOW.<br /> <br /> Calling names does not prove one viewpoint or another.<br /> <br /> As for falling demand with higher prices. IMHO Yes it will slow oil use to a limited extent. But so will our ability to EXTRACT the oil. So prices should stay pretty high, and <br /> <br /> What really concerns me is the Social, govenrmental, and economic ramifications in the ADJUSTMENT period. <br /> <br /> Cuba proves that we CAN feed the entire world w/o OIL. So too do studies that show no tilling/ organic farming the soil INCREASES yeilds, though it takes more HUMAN labor (energy).<br /> <br /> So go ahead and have more kids. Just be sure to live on a farm so you can feed them no matter what. (Kids always do "Chores" and end up being an assset to a family farm, yep folks good ol' child labor!) <br /> <br /> But What will it take before the USA becomes more of a co-operative (hopefully NOT communist), and less of a consumer society?<br /> <br /> How much war? How much upheval?<br /> <br /> I don NOT want to be "alarmist" but we need to get the message of hope and a better future out to the Public.<br /> <br /> If not, then the Governmnet will show it's selfish side, and we will have more wars for PetroDollars, Crude Oil, and "Our way of Life." <br /> <br /> All of this human misery is AVIODABLE if we are willing to accept the most logical outcome. (even though it will only be "proven" after the event)<br /> <br /> - A concerned Virginian



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Tuesday, June 15 @ 14:10:56 PDT
Right on. Demand will fall if prices rise too high, too fast, but that still does not rebut the fundamental claim, Peak Oil is here!!!



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Tuesday, June 22 @ 21:26:14 PDT
I agree, to a point. I think the the time of peak oil is at hand, and it will change things. However I think that we are clever monkeys and will figure something out. Many people will be very uncomfortable, and we could have some attrition, but in the end I believe it'll be a high tech, low energy future. Why can't the wind move our goods around the world? Why can't wind and solar create enough power to light our homes? It'll work out, because it has to. We just have to wake up to the reality and start to create the high tech/low energy world.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by philUK (blahblah@blah.blah) on Wednesday, June 23 @ 21:53:38 PDT
(User Info )
If only the market economy had a reality that simply conformed to supply and demand. Demand has a huge psychological component which means that when supply changes there can be real mental damage. Secondly, western economies are incredibly complex webs, much more complex than during the last oil shock, and have not had to react quickly to a problem that goes to the heart of our way of life. Thirdly, demand per se does not drop during a recession, effective demand does (see psychological damage above)and a recession still involves strong levels of economic activity which may not be possible when peak oil becomes a problem. It may also have escaped the above writer's notice but our economists don't understand how the economy works very well and they can't deal with the greater ecological environment in which economies are embedded. So the whole supply-demand analysis is not the master key to how economies work but that of the flows of energy in an eco-economic system. Moreover it is the science which is driving the peak oil debate and not the doom mongers who largely exist inside the minds of arrogant right-wingers. These same people are also the ones most in denial, most likely to try to hold on to the western way of life by waging wars for control of oil and most likely to make constructive early remedial action impossible due to their control of our news media. Lastly, any change to an alternate form of energy will require the use of the same fossil fuels to get us there before it can become self-sustaining so that the changeover time needs a short burst of application to give it any chance of success and because of the way politics works this is unlikely...so enjoy the ride it sure is going to be scary but sometimes people need shaking up to face wht is both obvious but inconvenient.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by HUUman on Friday, June 25 @ 04:23:13 PDT
(User Info )
There are great possibilities out there when the price of oil becomes high enough to force us to look into them. However, currently, none or few are proven. If your interest is only in surviving, rather than maintaining something near your current quality of life. I'd say, press on. Its not a problem.. at least to you. To look at how that thinking will lead you, you need only to look to poor African societies. They walk miles to find dried cow dung to burn so they can cook their inadequate food often designed to fill their children's gut rather than nurish them. <br /> <br /> Instead of being forced into such a lifestyle, why not head off the problem before it festers? I suggest several ways: One way would be to make sure that the DOE carefully studies the hundreds of successful LENTR (Cold Fusion) experiments and seriously begins investing in that and similar possible sources. Another would be to tax the hell out of all non-renewable energy sources and put part of that money back into the development stream while assisting those most affected. When the price of oil is high enough, the innovators will come out of the woodwork. We need to pursue every possible avenue in order to insure success. Personally, I am not willing to sacrifice my son's future in order to finance your excesses if I can in any way avoid it. This is a big problem that demands creative and direct solutions before it is too late.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 0)
by Guest on Saturday, June 26 @ 13:10:42 PDT
This man is brainwashed by Adam Smith capitalism-- what he fails to see is his theory leads to a have-- have not social system- we have done that to other countries--now we will do it to our own people--I smell war cooking in his demented self centered outlook.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by dean on Friday, August 20 @ 11:42:58 PDT
(User Info )
I think the author of "Peak Oil is a Myth" is putting us on. This is the same dumb argument that we have come to expect from economist. He is repeating this nonsense in order to give us an even worse impression of economist than we already have.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Erick on Wednesday, November 24 @ 19:39:57 PST
(User Info )
Oversimplified, generic explaination, which was mostly rhtortical without any qualitative counter arguements.

All opinion, peak oil isn't religion, it is posits about the future based upon sound principles of the laws of thermodynamics.

What we have now is cheap efficient energy source, that is going away. Simple and straight forward.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by amorando on Saturday, March 26 @ 01:57:32 PST
(User Info ) http://conservation.blog-city.com
Of course the author is correct that as price goes up consumption will come down. But oil is not movie tickets or the baseball game, it's more like cigarettes and medicine. The retationship between price and consumption is not 1:1. WHen the price goes up how are all the Americans locked into large cars going to get out of them? How are all those people in outlying suburbs who have jobs in town going to get to them?
Yes, there will be some adjustments, like car pooling, and thermastat adjustment, but almost all adjustments will allow perhaps a maximum of 25 % reduction in consumption. To have more reduction in consumption of oil for energy, masses of the now heavily urbanized population would have to move back to the farms. But most of them have lost the skills required for farming, they have lost the skills required for canning home produce and they have lost the skills required to heat with wood.
This supply and demand curve is attenuated. Please excuse any non-standard terminology. This writer has not had even one course in Economics. There is a peak oil phenomenon and a problem.
I don't know that it will wipe out whole populations, but it is going to change a lot of people's ways of life.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by aflurry on Tuesday, March 29 @ 15:08:01 PST
(User Info )
I actually agree about the a priori misanthropy statement to a degree, though. I would admit there is a certain kind of entertainment in watching the system collapse. It is interesting anyway. And I do think the instant road warrior scenarios are the result of panic. Property laws will still hold. But still it is going to get rough.

Especially in America the economy is built necessity for overall long term growth to meet the demands of debt maintenance and usury. Peak oil will cause long term contraction, and that is unprecedented. We are experiencing a pandemic of debt right now which increases the need for expansion. The growing debt shows we have been borrowing against increasing cost of energy for 30 years as the peak has approached.

Purely econimic analysis also assumes continued participation. If the US govt begins to default, you can toss it.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by gt1370a on Saturday, April 02 @ 07:04:50 PST
(User Info )
Two thoughts. One, tell those people who got shot in gas station lines in the 70s that it's no big deal and the market will save them.

Two, basic supply/demand economics works well for luxuries, not so well with essentials. With essentials, there is a minimum amount you must use regardless of price. Like water, if water became very expensive, what are you going to do, stop drinking it? Switch to "an alternative"? Oil (energy) is the same way. No matter how expensive gas gets, people HAVE to get to work, they HAVE to be able to transport food. The Peak Oil sites have done well to explain why alternative energy sources are not viable because we have become so dependent on cheap, abundant oil.

The market WILL regulate the price, but that doesn't mean it won't be painful.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by ehv_nl (No-one@all) on Thursday, June 02 @ 01:49:13 PDT
(User Info )
First remark would be that alarmism can indeed be a psychological state of mind, an affliction if you will. But that fact in itself is no rebuttal of the argument that oil is such a katalyst for modern globalist economy that destruction of demand would mean destruction of the economy.

Let me explain by an example: During the fourteenth century, as wel as during the whole of the middle ages there were many apocalyptic cults and movements. Think of the Flagellants. These obviously were alarmists. But the fact that the author would characterize these people as "mental" didn't stop the plague from wiping out about one third of the population. The Middle Ages ended in collaps.

A bit tongue in cheek: Just because we're paranoid isn't a guarantee for a happy end.

Now lets strip this rant of all it's rant-ish remarks. What is left is a classic Milton Friedman response to the Peak Oil predictions:

"once oil supplies start to come down, the price will rise accordingly. This will cause an economic recession, and viola... you have less demand! It is in this period of economic recession that people will start to re-evaluate where to invest their time, money, and energy. Obviously, one of the places people will invest in is sources of energy other than oil."

There it is. And we've discussed that before. I certainly *hope* he's right. It would save my pension, my wealth and would allow for my rich way of life to continue. But I simply don't believe it.





Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by dgacioch on Saturday, August 20 @ 08:50:21 PDT
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Theres good arguments to be made on both sides.  I do see oil production peaking, but indeed economic recession is going to swat a lot of demand.    Using the supply/demand theory though only delays the inevitable.  It will eventually happen unless we curb growth,  population, and energy usage.   Much of this should be possible in the western world.  My own view is we will see an energy and interest rate induced depression in the next 1 to 2 years.   Hopefully at this time we get a clean and green energy bill which will massively subsidize the alternative and renewable energy industries.  There also needs to be a mandate that at least 20% of electricity generation be done with renewables in this country very soon,  say by 2010 or 2012.   When I look at all the pork in the current highway bill,  im both depressed and hopeful.  Im depressed because doing all these wasteful road projects in the declining age of oil seems useless to me.  Its simply a jobs bill,  made to spend money and put people back to work.  Im hopeful because if congress can whip that stupid bill up in short order,  then getting a similiarly or better financed green energy bill should be no problem.    Getting the government to admit theres a problem is going to be the hard part.  Once thats done,  the United States has proven time and time again that they will open the checkbooks to whomever and whatever will fix a problem.   We are not at a police state yet.  People here may tolerate a loss in some personal freedoms.   I do not however believe that citizens will tolerate a suspension of free elections.  If theres enough pressure,  politicians will spend whatever needs to be spent to continue on in office.    Call me an optomist,  but im also of the belief that more and more members of congress are starting to really realize the dire straits of both our energy situation,  and the effects our wasteful nature are having on the world environment (particularly global warming and the drought that goes with it).  Not all in congress are elitist money mongrels,  looking out for themselves.    



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by mattzgone on Tuesday, October 04 @ 20:26:45 PDT
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I think this guy masterbates to oil. He's insane with denial.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by killJOY (psycho@large.com) on Thursday, October 06 @ 13:36:15 PDT
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He references "Good Will Hunting?" Are you SHITTING me? A movie about the paradigmatic pseudoscience, psychotherapy? Right there, stop reading.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Curmudgicus on Tuesday, December 13 @ 17:17:46 PST
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My guess is that you, sir, are a young man have not really seen much of the world at first hand, and quite possibly haven't read much history either. The most amazing concept that mankind has ever developed is the idea of "normal." Normal is what is accepted, everyday, and FIXED in people's minds, yet it can change so drasticallly from year to year that our recent past becomes a foreign country. Extrapolate that to the near future and see how well you recognize the "reality" you are so certain of.
PeakOil as an event isn't that huge really, but it is outside the range of "normal" experience for you and so you ridicule it. Spend a few years in the Peace Corps in different third world countries, and dive into some books about recent history to expand the range of what your mind can comprehend as "normal."
Within the living memory of some of your fellow citizens was a war that destroyed 500 year-old monarchies and the empires of Europe along with 16 million people and ended in a pandemic that killed another 50 million people. Within that same living memory was a world economic catastrophe that put 25% of Americans out of work for nearly a decade. Those recent events were followed by yet another terrible war that slaughtered 62 million soldiers and civilians. We dodged a superpower nuclear holocaust by the very narrowest of margins. These things all dwarf our little peakoil discussions, but you find PO unthinkable?
When I was in high school, it was the US itself whose market economy was going to solve the problem of energy and keep the domestic production of oil rising. It didn't and it hasn't. The oil wasn't there, and that settled that. The sci-fi utopians said we'd all be driving atomic powered cars and eating food pills, while the doomers predicted nuclear armageddon. We aren't all dead and life does go on. But what used to be "normal" mutated like a Three-Mile-Island dandelion. You can and must make the adapations to new realities as they occur. It is the only way to be less shocked by the magnitude of the events that unfold in your lifetime. You owe it to yourself.
I say all of this to you because I realize, after all, that you're just a kid.



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Micah on Monday, January 16 @ 21:24:56 PST
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Peak Oil is no myth, it is a fact. The question then becomes "what will be the effects of peak oil on society?" and common assumption is "the scientists will think of something". Fossil fuel energies are extremely unique, and finding alternate energy capable of fulfilling all the advantages of fossil fuels will be difficult. The effects of peak oil on society will be determined by how we (as a society, as governments, as individuals) position ourselves for the transition from oil.
Present governments are aware of oil as a dwindling resource. I urge you to read the document "Rebuilding America's Defenses", a vision produced by the Neo-conservative American leaders in the current administration.
Here is a link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
In this document, they outline America's bold grand strategy in the post-cold war era, the power and  opportunities we Americans finally have as the last Super-power of the world. Their strategy mostly focuses on preserving our Lone Super-power status as far into the next century as we can manage, and one of the primary objectives is to secure as much of the last oil reserves as we can, to position forces throughout Saudi arabia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, so that we may control the last of the oil resources and be in the best position to navigate the "Peak Oil" crises.
One of the primary objectives in America's Grand Strategy is to win a  'resource war' in the middle east. In theory, if we don't have these troops in place, or these America-friendly governments installed for the 'big day' when oil hits its peak, then we may lose the final bid on the last of the oil reserves, to places like China, or Europe. Our strategy now is to be the last nation to run out of oil, in hopes that we can maintain our Super-power status for as long as possible, and navigate the oil crises from the position on top.
That is the path we are on now as Americans. Its a bitter shame that our greedy nature and our love of our super-power status "#1" means we would rather fight our way through a global crises, instead of using our global power in a more cooperative manner. We Americans choose to invest 5.6 billion dollars a month to wage a war (that we might not win),  and begin a campaign of resource domination to solve  the inevitable energy crises.  Imagine, if we had the sense to apply that 5.6 billion a month to constructing alternate energy plants across the country, 5.6 billion dollars repeated, going straight into the construction of Wind-powered renewable energy, or solar-powered technology. Now, I am not sure what the final price tag would be when talking about building an renewable-energy infrastructure, but the dollar investment has to be better then starting and funding a hopeless war. Developing alternate energy is going to be a hell of a lot easier before the peak oil crises takes shape, yet our strategy now is war.
What will be the effects of Peak Oil? Timing is everything. We can invest now, and transition cooperatively into an age of  renewable-energy, or wage a do-or-die war for the last of a finite resource. It is important to know that our government is aware of the peak oil crises and is banking on our military option to guide us through it.
 



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by karma on Saturday, January 21 @ 05:33:29 PST
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Actually the poster has it exactly right.

"Whenever demand increases relative to supply (or supply decreases realtive to demand), the price rises. Rising prices send this signal to the consumers: you better start demanding less! Then magically, demand falls!!!"

...and falls, and falls, and falls, and falls....



Re: Peak Oil is a Myth (Score: 1)
by Aussie_physicist on Sunday, June 01 @ 02:55:23 PDT
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It seems to me that the most congent response to those who argue that we'll certainly be saved by the power of the market is simply to bring their attention to the fact that they assume that there is a practical energy alternative to oil, in which the market can invest when it feels the need. This is a questionable assumption.

Our economic system is predicated on ongoing growth. That growth requires ever larger amounts of energy. The fact that the economy has grown to its current state on the basis of oil means that it has developed enormous infrastructure accordingly, so any replacement energy source will need to be as similar to oil as possible (an easily stored and transported liquid with an astronomical energy density) if we wish to avoid rebuilding civilisation from some more fundamental stage. There are good reasons to believe that there just isn't such an energy source available in sufficient quantities. People talk about the 'miracle' of oil formation for a reason. We're trying as hard as we can to come up with new miracles of our own (I work full time, doing exactly that) but we're yet to crack the golden egg.

If there's nothing to step up and take over from where oil leaves us, without requiring us to enormously revise the structure of how we do things, our market economy will collapse. It's as simple as that, and that's exactly what as us peak oil lunatics are worried about.