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burtonridr
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
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Fishman
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 724
Location: Eastern NC
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 Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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Burton
I assume you don't read much history. Presidents have done much "worse" that this one has ever done restricting rights during a time of war. If your enemy is using your freedoms to kill you, it might be wise to curb them for a period of time. Remember 9/11 killed more US civilians than any war since the Civil War, oh yea, Lincoln restricted hab corpus during that little problem also. |
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Dreamtwister
Fission
Joined: Feb 06, 2006
Posts: 2213
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Fishman wrote: | | If your enemy is using your freedoms to kill you, it might be wise to curb them for a period of time. |
I cannot even begin to articulate my disgust at this sentiment. How can you call yourself an American?
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like_the_dinosaurs
Tar Sands
Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 98
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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Just exactly how did americans having freedom allow a terrorist attack to occur. It had nothing to do with freedom and everything to do with fear mongering to get people to think like you so the government can take what ever they like and you will give it too them with a great big dirty smile on your face. See the point is, allow governments too much control and they end up being far worse than any terrorist group could hope for.
It's a balancing act between personal freedoms and protections. If your trying too argue the petriot act is a positve step foward or even necessary then perhaps you should have lived in stalin or hitlers time. maybe you would have been more comfortable their.(oh yeah and safe too.)
State terrorism should worry people a great deal more.
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SPPNPO
Coal
Joined: Nov 21, 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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Fishman - are you serious?
Past wrongs (WWII Asian interment camps as another example) due not justify continued or present day violations of the law.
"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Richard Jackson (not Benjamin Franklin as commonly attributed to) |
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burtonridr
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Fishman wrote: | Burton
I assume you don't read much history. Presidents have done much "worse" that this one has ever done restricting rights during a time of war. |
Yea previous presidents may have made mistake and taken rights away, does that make the current president right for taking them away now? Hell No!
Does that make them bad presidents? No, sometimes they are i'll informed or whatever. It takes a lot to be a good leader, protect freedoms and protect the country.
There is no need to continue giving the president this kind of power.
| Fishman wrote: | | If your enemy is using your freedoms to kill you, it might be wise to curb them for a period of time. Remember 9/11 killed more US civilians than any war since the Civil War, oh yea, Lincoln restricted hab corpus during that little problem also. |
9/11 death toll 2,750 est
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=9_11&id=5333323
WW2 Death Toll 400,000 US Military
http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm
Civil war death toll 618,000
http://www.civilwarhome.com/casualties.htm
Iraq "war on terrorism" death toll
4,083 American soldiers
84,000-91,000 Iraqis
http://www.everydaycitizen.com/2008/05/solemn_recognition_of_death_to.html
The attack killed a lot of people, the resulting war killed a lot more.....
Sure we have not had another terrorist attack on American soil since we started the war, however I believe we could have accomplished the same, if not better results, by not going to war.
By better results I mean, we wouldnt have pissed off nearly EVERYONE and hindered our foreign relations with some of the countries.
Vote for pedro!
I approve this message,
Pedro
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5891
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| burtonridr wrote: | | This is seriously borderline dictatorship..... |
Dictatorships don't have free elections. |
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Dreamtwister
Fission
Joined: Feb 06, 2006
Posts: 2213
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | | burtonridr wrote: | | This is seriously borderline dictatorship..... |
Dictatorships don't have free elections. |
No, but they often have staged elections.
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The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Cloud9
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1036
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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Mr. Bush will very shortly be an item of history. His glory days are about over. What you really need to worry about is the political leanings of the next president.
My gut feeling is that there is a greater chance of a storm trooper kicking in my door under Mr. Obama than there ever was under Mr. Bush.
Echos of Ruby Ridge and Waco come to mind. |
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Plantagenet
Expert
Joined: Apr 09, 2007
Posts: 5891
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Dreamtwister wrote: | | Plantagenet wrote: | | burtonridr wrote: | | This is seriously borderline dictatorship..... |
Dictatorships don't have free elections. |
No, but they often have staged elections. |
Which election do you imagine will be staged?  |
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Dreamtwister
Fission
Joined: Feb 06, 2006
Posts: 2213
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Plantagenet wrote: | | Which election do you imagine will be staged? |
Rather than taking your (very obvious) bait, I'll simply say "All of them, at every level of government, and the problem has been growing worse since 1812 when Elbridge Gerry discovered he could redraw the boundries of his state to the benefit of his party."
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The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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Kaj
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 06, 2006
Posts: 378
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| burtonridr wrote: |
Iraq "war on terrorism" death toll[/b]
84,000-91,000 Iraqis
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I know its disputed, but the number just has to be far higher than that. The number you cite is only the reported deaths from Iraq Body Count; however the vast, vast majority of deaths have gone unreported. We should not rely on Iraq Body Count.
A reliable British poll which uses the same techniques as the UN to measure genocide deaths estimated a couple of years back 655,000 civilian deaths in Iraq.
So its surely closer to 1 million or more civilian deaths now.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-iraq14sep14,1,1207545.story?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=1&cset=true
No government involved in the war will admit this though. |
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Fishman
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 11, 2005
Posts: 724
Location: Eastern NC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Most of the above a strong arguement to vote for the Clueless Obama. We'll try a little experiment, let Obama repeal it, see how things go. Hope you guys and gals are not in New York. Fearmongering, nope, just my study of history. |
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burtonridr
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| Fishman wrote: | | Most of the above a strong arguement to vote for the Clueless Obama. We'll try a little experiment, let Obama repeal it, see how things go. Hope you guys and gals are not in New York. Fearmongering, nope, just my study of history. |
I dont understand what your stance is on this subject....
Do you think there should be due process? Or do you think that the president should be able to do what ever he feels like?
Strong argument to vote for obama?
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Tired of high gas prices? Then stop driving to work, duh..... Learn to Work from home
Peak Oil Blog = http://getroasted.wordpress.com |
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mos6507
Fusion
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 3715
Location: Boston Suburbs
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Keep Due Process Alive! |
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| like_the_dinosaurs wrote: | | Just exactly how did americans having freedom allow a terrorist attack to occur. |
Freedom to overstay your visa and take flying lessons in Florida. |
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