How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4361 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
We must not forget that this area is called "The Badlands" for a reason.
Dry, cold, hopelessly rural, wilderness is a recipe for disaster.
There are some people who might be able to build sustainable survivalist communities out there, but the odds are that unless you are extremely skilled and willing to live in rural poverty in a dead, empty lunar landscape...you are not one of those people.
You might as well set up camp in Siberia.
I should also mention that North Dakota has some coal and other mineral resources in the western part of the state but other than that, virtually no one lives in NW North Dakota. So if you need help out there...forget it.
Moreover, North Dakota is one of the most conservative places on planet earth. ND has the most churches per capita in the United States and the lowest % of people describing themselves as non-religious. So I don't know how kindly they will take to an influx of foreign hippies...
Again, Siberia seems like a much better location, Post Peak. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Two catches, though: You have to build a minimum 1000 sqaure foot house within two years (mine would be more like 100 or 200 sq ft.), and... you gotta get there by Monday morning, the 19th. Oh well. Too cold for me anyway.
Joined: Sep 25, 2004 Posts: 4361 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
bshirt wrote:
Gideon wrote:
Prairies are almost deserts.
But one day the plains will be plains again.
I live in the upper midwest but sadly can't refute your statement.
Otoh, low....
1. population
2. taxes
3. bureaucracy
4. pollution
5. cost of living
and hydroponics just might hack it.
1. In order to maintain a civilization, the population must reach a critical mass. It is very possible that 600,000 people is not enough to maintain North Dakota's current level of specialization and that if they weren't a massive welfare leech on the rest of the country, they would collapse.
North Dakota takes $2.03 for every dollar it puts into the federal treasury!
Good luck trying to survive in that state without the massive influx of federal money.
2. Low Taxes? They only get away with that because North Dakota is stealing from the rest of the country and therefore does not need to steal from its own residents.
3. Bureaucracy leads to inefficiency, sure. But without at least a little regulation and government power, it is impossible to accomplish any long term goals. Establishing large wind farms in that state would be possible if the bureaucracy was more powerful but because the state government is relatively weak...it doesn't.
4. Low pollution in the eastern part, sure. But the strip mining operations of the western half are notorious. Also, who needs pollution to ruin an environment that is already inhospitable to human life?
5. Low cost of living only because it is so damn undesirable to live in most of that state. They are giving away land for Pete's sake. You don't do that in a place that is worth living in.
I apologize if anyone reading this is in fact from North Dakota, I don't mean to sound cruel. I also urge you to consider relocating. _________________ "www.peakoil.com is the Myspace of the Apocalypse."
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
Tyler_JC wrote:
bshirt wrote:
Gideon wrote:
Prairies are almost deserts.
But one day the plains will be plains again.
I live in the upper midwest but sadly can't refute your statement.
Otoh, low....
1. population
2. taxes
3. bureaucracy
4. pollution
5. cost of living
and hydroponics just might hack it.
1. In order to maintain a civilization, the population must reach a critical mass. It is very possible that 600,000 people is not enough to maintain North Dakota's current level of specialization and that if they weren't a massive welfare leech on the rest of the country, they would collapse.
North Dakota takes $2.03 for every dollar it puts into the federal treasury!
Good luck trying to survive in that state without the massive influx of federal money.
2. Low Taxes? They only get away with that because North Dakota is stealing from the rest of the country and therefore does not need to steal from its own residents.
3. Bureaucracy leads to inefficiency, sure. But without at least a little regulation and government power, it is impossible to accomplish any long term goals. Establishing large wind farms in that state would be possible if the bureaucracy was more powerful but because the state government is relatively weak...it doesn't.
4. Low pollution in the eastern part, sure. But the strip mining operations of the western half are notorious. Also, who needs pollution to ruin an environment that is already inhospitable to human life?
5. Low cost of living only because it is so damn undesirable to live in most of that state. They are giving away land for Pete's sake. You don't do that in a place that is worth living in.
I apologize if anyone reading this is in fact from North Dakota, I don't mean to sound cruel. I also urge you to consider relocating.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6019 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
Hopelessly dry and cold. North Dakota's population lives on imported ancient sunlight. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 3832 Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
Could have picked up a house in ND for $500 about 30 years ago. The town had one small coffee shop & for $.05 you could fill up your cup. Pretty much everything else was shut down. No school left, no general store, no nothing, just a few ol timmers hanging at the coffee shop. I'm outta here!
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
I've never been to North Dakota, but I can say for a fact that South Dakota has the skankiest water I've ever tasted. Tastes like somebody stirred a teaspoon of chalk into your glass of water. That, BTW, is the well water. Even my dog won't go in South Dakota surface water. Those in the know bring their water with them from out of state when they visit South Dakota. It's a beautiful place, but it is a hard place to live. In August it can be 50 degrees in the morning and 105 by the afternoon. And yeah. The reason there's no trees is that there's no water. The river banks and a lot of places where theres a draw or some other feature that attracts water, it will be full of trees. _________________ "I was born in a deep forest
I wish I could live here all my life
I am made from stones and roots
My home, these woods and roads
All my life I loved this sound
Of the woods all around
Eagles fly where the winds blow free" -Korpiklaani
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
smallpoxgirl wrote:
I've never been to North Dakota, but I can say for a fact that South Dakota has the skankiest water I've ever tasted. Tastes like somebody stirred a teaspoon of chalk into your glass of water. That, BTW, is the well water. Even my dog won't go in South Dakota surface water. Those in the know bring their water with them from out of state when they visit South Dakota. It's a beautiful place, but it is a hard place to live. In August it can be 50 degrees in the morning and 105 by the afternoon. And yeah. The reason there's no trees is that there's no water. The river banks and a lot of places where theres a draw or some other feature that attracts water, it will be full of trees.
I do live in eastern South Dakota. No trees??? No water????
Eastern South Dakota is nothing but trees and water. Everywhere.
That's a big chunk of land too. Much bigger than Taxachusetts (that some here are so proud of). Oh sure, on their small plot of land they've got Ted Kennedy and millions of rats in a cage (Boston) which I'm so envious of. I'll just have to get over it.
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6019 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Relocation/Cheap Land at praerie.
bshirt wrote:
smallpoxgirl wrote:
I've never been to North Dakota, but I can say for a fact that South Dakota has the skankiest water I've ever tasted. Tastes like somebody stirred a teaspoon of chalk into your glass of water. That, BTW, is the well water. Even my dog won't go in South Dakota surface water. Those in the know bring their water with them from out of state when they visit South Dakota. It's a beautiful place, but it is a hard place to live. In August it can be 50 degrees in the morning and 105 by the afternoon. And yeah. The reason there's no trees is that there's no water. The river banks and a lot of places where theres a draw or some other feature that attracts water, it will be full of trees.
I do live in eastern South Dakota. No trees??? No water????
Eastern South Dakota is nothing but trees and water. Everywhere.
That's a big chunk of land too. Much bigger than Taxachusetts.
That's true, bshirt, but eastern South Dakota is extremely vulnerable to looking like the rest of South Dakota pretty soon, as are all the margins of the central US (which is well on the way to becoming a vast desert). _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
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