Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq? Well, we would still be bombing Iraq a couple times a week, just like Clinton did for eight years, Iran would still be building their nukes, the A. Q. Kahn network would not have been uncovered, Libya would not have surrendered its nuclear equipment and might have nukes, North Korea would still have its nuke, Mexico would still be Mexico, Chavez would still be a dictator, Haiti would still be Haiti, the housing bubble would still bust, Banks would still fail, and California would still burn……..AND WE WOULD STILL BE RUNNING OUT OF OIL. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Joined: Sep 03, 2007 Posts: 639 Location: Sunny Virginia, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
And we'd have several thousand extra living citizen/soldiers, several thousand fewer PTSD cases, about a trillion dollars of less debt, and I would argue fewer invasive laws since it would have taken a much bigger man than GWB to not go into Iraq. Such a man would likely not have tried to destroy the constitution.
Oh, and the housing bubble may not have happend (or at least have been as bad) for the very same reason, rampant old boy-ism probably lead to that as much as anything. Without the arrogance of this administration, things would have been somewhat different. _________________ When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4963 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
BigTex wrote:
Thousands of Americans would be alive
Tens of thousands of Americans would not be maimed
Hundreds of billions of dollars would be available to spend on something else
Iraq would be providing a check on Iran's military ambitions
Colin Powell would probably be the Republican nominee for President
The U.S. would not have committed a classic blunder of empires in decline--messy and protracted foreign military adventures
Peak oil would still be peak oil
One more point: Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's would still be alive and hundreds of thousands more Iraqi's wouldn't be maimed by actions by various elements stemming from US attacks.
No, another point too: The media was almost 100% supportive of this disaster from the start clamoring in unison for war and MORE WAR! If not for the Iraq invasion whomever was president after 2004 would have been clobbered mercilessly by the media for NOT invading, bombing, and occupying Iraq. The public was so supportive of The Wars after the media brainwashing that Bush II may not have been re-elected if he hadn't invaded. _________________ Got Dharma?
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
with 20/20 hindsight,they should have left Saddam in power ,but have told him in no uncertain terms to keep the Oil flowing to US tankers in increasing quantities and if not, they would take him out.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
We would be complaining that Dubya didn't go into Iraq & left a murdering dictator in power which the democrats must now clean up. _________________ People first, then things, then dollars.
There will be enslavement, cannibalism, & zombie invasions.
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4337 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
heroineworshipper wrote:
We would be complaining that Dubya didn't go into Iraq & left a murdering dictator in power which the democrats must now clean up.
If "murdering dictator" is the test, we're going to be busy for a long time.
When did forcibly changing other governments over to our preferred form become the policy?
Isn't that what the USSR did and we thought it was like an ideological plague.
How about we leave the internal politics of sovereign nations to the ruling powers in those countries and we take care of our own internal troubles? _________________
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
About 170,000 people died in the US from auto accidents from 2003 thru 2006. Hmmm About 2,000 solders died in Iraq in the same period. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 398 Location: Mississippi Delta
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
Funny, I don't remember any tremendous clamor to invade Iraq or do anything to Saddam before Bush and his neocon henchmen started beating the drums for war. Most Americans were barely aware Iraq still existed. A few on the left complained about Clinton's bombing, but the rest of the country was just happy that the economy seemed to be working. After 9/11, everyone was focused on Osama and the Taliban. The Idea to invade Iraq came out of left field and had no connection to anything until the neocons invented it. Their motives predated 9/11 and are well documented.
Yeah, and a lot of American families that aren't would be intact, with functional breadwinners who could help a lot in the coming troubles.
What's the point of this thread, anyway? If I can summarize the OP, it reads something like, "Things are rotten, and they would still be rotten if we hadn't spent trillions of dollars and killed tens of thousands of humans in Iraq." Pretty chickenshit argument, if you ask me. _________________ Sarah Palin: Because what we really need right now is another inexperienced, inarticulate, personable, fundamentalist governor of an oil-dependent state for president.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
BigTex wrote:
heroineworshipper wrote:
We would be complaining that Dubya didn't go into Iraq & left a murdering dictator in power which the democrats must now clean up.
If "murdering dictator" is the test, we're going to be busy for a long time.
When did forcibly changing other governments over to our preferred form become the policy?
Isn't that what the USSR did and we thought it was like an ideological plague.
How about we leave the internal politics of sovereign nations to the ruling powers in those countries and we take care of our own internal troubles?
I know how to solve this, lets vote. And when the vote doesn't go your way, you can complain about it for the rest of time. _________________ HOLDING THE CENTER
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
IMO the Iraq war was a miscalculated effort to deal with PO. It simply was expected to hit earlier.
Now, after having burnt enormous amounts of money, a weaker currency and the majority of creative financing at the end (the eventual housing bubble was taken in consideration by Greenspan), the situation is that of a shipwreck.
In that respect PO knowledge was counterproductive!
Joined: Sep 29, 2004 Posts: 2330 Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
IMO, if we'd have stopped short of war after 9/11 and beefed up security at home, like we have, we'd be in much better shape today. We'd have great relations with allies as well most of the rest of the world. We'd be in far better financial shape, in fact we might have been able to retain the budget surplus inherited from the Clinton administration.
Most of the terrorists involved in 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia and surrounding countries. In other words, they came from "friendly" nations. In 2001, Iraq was isolated as Sadam had very few, if any friends in neighboring countries. The Iraq war in particular was not a rational action. You can win all the battles and lose the war as the saying goes and another great saying is that you have to pick your battles wisely. You don't win wars by picking easy targets (Iraq), but by carefully picking the correct targets. Terrorism is a world wide police problem. Terrorists don't fight conventional war for which military are designed. They commit wanton killing on generally non strategic targets. Their actions are designed solely to produce a response, not win a war. We played right into the hand of the terrorists and they have succeeded. America's image around the world; which was pretty good during the Clinton years, is now ruined. America is looked upon with cynical, distrusting eyes by most of the world right now. The fallout from all that is subtle, but all encomposing. The world has decided to take steps to limit America's power through economic war and we've made it easy for them. IMO, had Gore won office in 2001, we'd be less dependent on foreign oil and that oil would be much cheaper.
So cling to your beloved "victories" with all your heart, vetusfirma. We mortgaged the entire country to the world to pay for them. _________________ "That's the problem with mercy, kid... It just ain't professional" - Fast Eddie, The Color of Money
Joined: Aug 03, 2006 Posts: 4337 Location: Graceland
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Where would we be if we hadn’t gone into Iraq?
vetusfirma wrote:
About 170,000 people died in the US from auto accidents from 2003 thru 2006. Hmmm About 2,000 solders died in Iraq in the same period.
I don't follow that logic.
What does people dying in car wrecks have to do with combat deaths and injuries in Iraq?
To me, you have to weigh the cost in dead and wounded Americans in Iraq and the cost of funding their operations against the benefit that such operations are providing to the security of the United States. I do not think that the benefits to U.S. security (if there are any) justify these costs.
The fact that people were getting in car wrecks in the meantime is, to me, not relevant. _________________
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