For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:42 pm Post subject: Negotiating the American Way of Life
Contrary to the opinions of our so called leaders, it appears that the American Way of Life is being negotiated, by the world, both in terms of geophysical constraints and geopolitical conflicts.
I'm not clear on the context in which these statements were made, but I'm under the impression that they were in reference to increasing conservation measures and even (gasp) reducing energy use. The arrogance of the implication that Americans are somehow endowed with a right to waste the finite, non-renewable, most energy intensive resources as fast as they possibly can, with a complete absence of regard for the effects on the environment and on opportunity for future generations is absolutely mind-numbing.
This "American" arrogance is going to be our downfall if we allow it to continue any longer. It is way past time for the people to wake up and start negotiating with themselves, their children, and their elected officials.l
Both Dick Cheney and Dubya's daddy, George H.W. Bush, have said that "the American way of life is not negotiable." Bush the Elder said it at an international environmental summit. Presumably, he meant that we aren't cutting back our energy use, so there. IOW, "You'll pry my SUV from my cold, dead fingers."
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: America the new Roman empire
I'm sure the Romans said the same thing. Seems that kind of statement marks the beginning of the end of empire....
All empires collapse in the end, as surely as all other living entities someday dies to give room for new life.... such is the nature of things...
But I doubt China will become the new great power, they are collapsing under their own weight real fast... Seems like south america and russia still have lots of resources left and not so pressured by their populace.
Most likely there will be no more "world empires", simply too energy costly. Globalization is about to die... which is a good thing in many ways
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: America the new Roman empire
mainster wrote:
Seems like south america and russia still have lots of resources left and not so pressured by their populace.
Most likely there will be no more "world empires", simply too energy costly. Globalization is about to die... which is a good thing in many ways
Amen to that brother. I think globalization is a ponzi scheme that has just run out of bottom feeders--cheap oil. Globalization was a nice idea. But there are economists who have run models indicating that globalization leads to a lose-lose sitation over time. I don't have an economics degree, but the amount of faith put into Ricardo and Smith's ideas would be similar to putting faith into the ideas of biologists of the same time period. Some good ideas, some bad ideas. Right now, if Ricardo says something, it is treated as gospel.
Joined: Jul 21, 2004 Posts: 327 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: America the new Roman empire
trespam wrote:
Amen to that brother. I think globalization is a ponzi scheme that has just run out of bottom feeders--cheap oil. Globalization was a nice idea. But there are economists who have run models indicating that globalization leads to a lose-lose sitation over time. I don't have an economics degree, but the amount of faith put into Ricardo and Smith's ideas would be similar to putting faith into the ideas of biologists of the same time period. Some good ideas, some bad ideas. Right now, if Ricardo says something, it is treated as gospel.
First of all, the faith in globalization was a distortion of Ricardo's ideas. David Ricardo lived in the 19th century and 99 percent of economists have not read his book, The Principles of Political Economy and Taxation. In it, Ricardo claimed that comparative advantage (the doctrine on which modern free trade is supposedly based) would only work if capital were immobile. If capital is mobile, there is no comparative advantage but absolute (competitive) advantage. The same thing applies to the so-called Heckscher-Ohlin (factor endowments) model -- it only works under full employment (given that China has tens if not hundreds of millions of unemployed people, wages will not adjust and the factor price adjustment claim falls apart). In other words, economists base their statements on models the assumptions of which are grossly violated in the real world. The problem is, very few economists have had a history of economic thought course and do not know that. Sometimes they are even aware of the situation, but once you get a Ph.D. and are employed by the WTO, the World Bank or Deloitte Touche, it would be a suicide to tell the truth.[/u]
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 1037 Location: 28° N 81° W
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject:
What kinda name is Deloitte Touche? Sounds like a Mafia punishment for someone who can't pay off a loan. _________________ American by birth, Muslim by choice, Southern by the grace of God!
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: America the new Roman empire
marek wrote:
claim falls apart). In other words, economists base their statements on models the assumptions of which are grossly violated in the real world. The problem is, very few economists have had a history of economic thought course and do not know that. Sometimes they are even aware of the situation, but once you get a Ph.D. and are employed by the WTO, the World Bank or Deloitte Touche, it would be a suicide to tell the truth.[/u]
Sounds like economics is heavily infected with ideology. And it calls itself a science? I'm a physicists by training, and certainly physics has had some wrong turns in the past, but to me the economists embracing of some ideas sounds equivalent to the russians opposing plate tectonics. Or Bush refusing the guidance of his science advisors.
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 486 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject:
You know that exact quote came into my mind this morning, "The American way of life is non-negotiable". I think Dubya said it when refering to the Kyoto accords or something like that.
Speaking as an American, I honestly don't see us accepting a "lower" energy lifestyle easily or quitely. There will be hell to pay before people start living like Cubans and every politician knows this. Maybe John Kerry can pull it off but I doubt it. There is absolutely no hope with Dubya. Our way of life with the toys, excessive abundance and never-ending growth is too deeply ingrained in our society. Why do you think they call it the "American dream"? I guarantee anybody who speaks about this would be called a communist or "un-american" or a terrorist who hates our freedom.
So in alot of ways, the American way of life is truly non-negotiable. Joe Public won't accept it and we have the guns to not have to accept it. What do my other fellow Americans think?
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject:
big_rc wrote:
they call it the "American dream"? I guarantee anybody who speaks about this would be called a communist or "un-american" or a terrorist who hates our freedom.
So in alot of ways, the American way of life is truly non-negotiable. Joe Public won't accept it and we have the guns to not have to accept it. What do my other fellow Americans think?
Mother nature doesn't negotiate. I think there is little that people can do. What are we going to do? Invade all the mideast and seize their oil? It hasn't worked in Iraq. Umpteen million indigenous people can always overwhelm an invading army. Nuke the place? Destroys the oil facilities.
I don't think it will work. Therefore the American way of life will end. Good riddance to it. Materialism and crass consumerism, finding meaning from a car that goes 0-60 in a few seconds, is completely empty of any value other than a base visceral one. It's not noble, that for sure.
Out with the old, in with the new. Complex for simple. I'm all for it.
The arrogance and hubris of those who say the American way of life is not negotiable is pathetic.
Speaking as an American, I honestly don't see us accepting a "lower" energy lifestyle easily or quitely.
I agree, most people who are comfortable living their excessively wasteful lifestyles will refuse to change but the world is "negotiating" with them daily, In essence saying, okay you want to keep living that way, then you have to pay... in terms of rising costs, oil prices, lost lives (american service personnel, innocents/collateral damage), tattered relations with world community, environmental/ecosystem collapse, global warming, and last but not least, terrorism.
That the american way of life is non-negotiable is the biggest crock of sh_t and it's pissing me off goddammit!!
The "leaders" aren't going to initiate the powerdown, as R. Heinberg recognizes...its got to come from the people. So my question to you Big_RC and everyone on this board who is an american, what are you going to do about it? Are you willing to pay these costs now and on into the indefinite future?
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:14 pm Post subject:
tkn317071 wrote:
The "leaders" aren't going to initiate the powerdown, as R. Heinberg recognizes...its got to come from the people. So my question to you Big_RC and everyone on this board who is an american, what are you going to do about it? Are you willing to pay these costs now and on into the indefinite future?
There is a segment of the American community seems energized by the silly words of Charlton Heston "from my cold dead hands." Well, you know what: the guy will soon enough be dead. His hands will be cold and dead. And mother nature will win. Mother nature knows how to deal with all those who think they can circumvent the laws of physics.
Sorry about that last post, I had to blow off some steam. I know most people on this board recognize the limits and are doing their best to change the dominant paradigm and voluntarily powerdown.
Joined: Jul 17, 2004 Posts: 486 Location: Amerika (most of the time)
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject:
tkn317071 wrote:
big_rc wrote:
Speaking as an American, I honestly don't see us accepting a "lower" energy lifestyle easily or quitely.
I agree, most people who are comfortable living their excessively wasteful lifestyles will refuse to change but the world is "negotiating" with them daily, In essence saying, okay you want to keep living that way, then you have to pay... in terms of rising costs, oil prices, lost lives (american service personnel, innocents/collateral damage), tattered relations with world community, environmental/ecosystem collapse, global warming, and last but not least, terrorism.
That the american way of life is non-negotiable is the biggest crock of sh_t and it's pissing me off goddammit!!
The "leaders" aren't going to initiate the powerdown, as R. Heinberg recognizes...its got to come from the people. So my question to you Big_RC and everyone on this board who is an american, what are you going to do about it? Are you willing to pay these costs now and on into the indefinite future?
All of your points are excellent and I understand where you are coming from. The problem is that many of us don't see that there is a problem. I can educate (and have started) until I'm blue in the face, but the problem is so massive and incomprehensible (for many) that it's easy to blame Arabs, OPEC or whomever. It's also a piece of cake to stick some clown economist on the TV saying everything is going to be alright and this happened in the '70's.
I guess the answer to your second question is that I'm not willing to pay the costs that you listed (I already have two cousins in Iraq) but most people are paying little (if any) costs or there is no connection between oil and the problems that it causes in their minds. That is where benevolent leadership comes into play and why I have no faith in Dubya.
Why can't we grab as many resources as we need to continue our way of life? We've been doing it for a long time and there will be no need to stop now. Also, if the third world begins a massive die-off or we need to kill a bunch of Iraqis to calm that situation, who will know or care if the US media doesn't cover it? Hell, a bunch of Americans still think Iraq had something to do with 9/11.
To end this long winded post, I just don't see low energy living happening in my wonderful but flawed country without a major fight. I don't know who, where or when but many are going to have to die needlessly before we accept a powerdown situation (and then I still think the US will get the lion's share of the resources).
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject:
big_rc wrote:
To end this long winded post, I just don't see low energy living happening in my wonderful but flawed country without a major fight. I don't know who, where or when but many are going to have to die needlessly before we accept a powerdown situation (and then I still think the US will get the lion's share of the resources).
I understand the perspective you are presenting, and I agree that there is a segment, perhaps large, of the American populace that believes excess and materialism is a god given right. It's amazing to me how so much of the religious right in this country has jumped into the materialistic free-market bandwagon--maybe because they're one of the few religions that actually have telethons to collect money.
But....
The perspective is also a severely negative indictment of the American people. That they are so selfish that they will consume other people--figuratively--in order to maintain their way of life. I just don't see that.
I know many people are in fact appalled at our way of life. These are not greens. These are every day people, working for living, who are amazed at how much we consume.
So there may be hope. The American people are turning on the war in Iraq and if they knew it was for oil, no matter what the reason, I think they would turn faster.
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