For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Thanks, Itch. Interested in hearing more.
I'm in S.B. right now visiting friends and doing some community work at a veterans building. Staying at my parents for free. I'll be back up north in about a month and a a half, give or take. I also agree with meeting in person. Phone, then person.
Some questions about the possibility-
Do your two friends, up there, read these forums? -Maybe it could help.
How down are they with this?
If they are down with it, would I be expected to buy land? And roughly, how much is a 20 acre parsle? -I could only do that if some friends and I, or a collective group of me friends and posters of this site, pool money.
TKN, yes I understand a 70 watt panel is $400 give or take and that's what I was thinking to get. But I don't fully understand everything about solar panels, batteries, watts, and volts. Doesn't it take 60 +/- watts to run a light bulb? Or could you get a lot of saved up energy in batteries from a small watt panel? I don't know. I'll have to go to the library.
Barb, what country do you live in? England? Just curious.
Well, keep the ball rolling, all, and thanks again, Itch.
Joined: Jul 07, 2004 Posts: 434 Location: Berkeley CA
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:20 pm Post subject:
Itch, I'm interested in hearing more.
Well if someone is going to invest solar/battery system, its only going to last for a few years or more, or this many number of years. After batteries recharge 1000+ cycles, 365 days in a year will only last so many years. After that they lose capacity and just become worthless. I'm thinking some solar gadgets will do the trick, but mayby itself only last a few years. Unless someone finds deep cycle batteries.
As far as I can contribute, I don't really have much money, that's why I really need to get a job. I do have some interest in tunneling, it would be nice to have a room under ground, as it would be cooler in the summer. Then it has other purpose like food storge etc.. as for farming, I'm not too sure, I think I could read books.
I'm a motivated person, and willing to work so thats one advantage I have. I have other things to contribute, I think I'll mention later. After this Monday it's the last day of class, so have nearly a month of summer left before going back to school. I'll graduate in the summer of 2005.
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject:
Deep cycle batteries are really all you can use for solar and wind applications because your constantly recharging them pretty much. They do tend to last a while though if properly maintained. Don t get me wrong, they will eventually wear out. But we are talking in years, not in months.
I will see if i can find more info on this topic later. _________________ Azreal60
I'm looking at some sweet 80W solar panels that are going for $315 on Ebay...seems like a good deal if you got the cash...the current bid is at 255.
Regarding batteries, I believe there are batteries called nickel-iron that last forever but not too many people make them, they're hard to find and expensive...when I visited the Rocky Mountain Institute, they had a bank of those.
Thanks, Itch. Interested in hearing more.
I'm in S.B. right now visiting friends and doing some community work at a veterans building. Staying at my parents for free. I'll be back up north in about a month and a a half, give or take. I also agree with meeting in person. Phone, then person.
Some questions about the possibility-
Do your two friends, up there, read these forums? -Maybe it could help.
How down are they with this?
If they are down with it, would I be expected to buy land? And roughly, how much is a 20 acre parsle? -I could only do that if some friends and I, or a collective group of me friends and posters of this site, pool money.
They don't read the forums. In fact, they are not only almost completely computer illiterate, but technologically illiterate to some degree. They don't use technology in the same way we do; they don't even get more than two television stations up there from the interference of the elevation and terrain.
About whether they support it: One of them loves the idea. I haven't heard what the other had to say, but I'll have that answer soon enough.
Twenty acres is a lot of Fark' land, especially with the density of resources in each acre, and these people have something like over fourty. They aren't exactly rich. One of them, who is about fifty years old, recently became a Wal Mart manager, which happened to be his first actual job, although he was a carpenter at one point; the other is a school psychologist, and doesn't make as much money, either. The land is obviously pretty cheap up there, so if you have a few friends that want to spend money while it still has value, then I'm sure the price range would be reasonable, considering that there isn't exactly a high demand for the land. I can't name an approximate price; I might have an answer later.
Thanks. I did alittle research on potatoes and they are actually the fourth best return for growing, out ranked only by corn, wheat and rice. The most eaten veggy in USA. They are also good in moist ground and high altitude since they originated in the Andes. Sounds like mendo from what you explained, Itch. And you can grow them year round, ideally in 40 f to 45 f ground temp. 4 inches in the ground, and 12 inches apart, 100 feet of, should yeild 200 lbs. I'm trying to find out how to make alchohol from them also but everyone says it's an Irish secret they won't give up. Also trying to learn how to crop rotate with potatoes- potatoes make soil exelent for grass so does grass make good potatoe soil? I doubt it but I don't know, and I know you can't eat grass of course, but does anyone know if there is technics to crop rotation?
TKN, how old is that solar panel? I wan't to get a really new one cause I hear they are multiply-better.
Itch, tell your friend, in Mendo, who is down with this that I love them and I'll take up little and work my arse off up there to pull weight if all goes thru.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:49 am Post subject:
Itch, I'm seriously interested, live in the Bay Area, and have many relevant skills and some resources.
I sent you my telephone number via private message so check your inbox on the board here. If for some reason it didn't get through, post here and we'll try another way.
After we talk by phone, we can see about getting together in person.
I lived in a couple of communes in the 60s, neither of which were well-planned or worked very well.
From my experience and reading in that area, there's a few things I'd want to see in a community I'd take part in.
1. No charismatic leaders, no cults of personality; pure democracy. Idols with clay feet are probably the number 1 reason these things fall apart, usually becoming cults before they crash and burn.
2. Every role in the community should be well-defined, and people should switch roles often. Leaders will inevitably emerge in a group of this sort. That should be recognized, and welcomed -- but with the knowledge that there will be no debt of gratitude to someone who simply recognizes a way to help, and performs, and no special role reserved for anyone.
2. Positive mentality. Personally, and this may not apply to communities others would wish to join, I do not want to be part of a "survivalist" group, huddled against doom. Any community I would be interested in would be joined for the purpose of an experiment in "sustainable prosperity." Whether peak happens or not, or "dieoff", however inevitable they may be, is immaterial. It's conceivable that apocalypse will be delayed by decades or even a century. The community's purpose shouldn't be dependent on doom.
3. No automatic exclusion. Suppose someone wanted a place for themselves and their paraplegic Dad? Gee, how can your Dad contribute? Any community needs a means to regulate itself, and create exclusions, but the rhetoric that's already appeared about "what can you bring to the table" is a sign of budding meritocracy that could become a major problem up the road. A community I would join would be more concerned about teachers for the unskilled than keeping the unskilled out.
The best way to "exclude" the non-serious is to make the process of joining the community self-selecting -- for instance, to maintain the community in a sparsely-populated area (California will not work) and require hard work of the able-bodied. Those who are not able-bodied would have to be accompanied by an able-bodied caretaker.
4. A business plan. The best shot at a successful community is one that is bult around a core business. Sustaining revenue, group focus, continuity, well-defined roles and expectations for incoming members, are a few of the benefits.
I could go on, but I think the above will probably be enough to provoke comment. _________________ http://www.openspeech.org - please visit and post!
I like your ideas buster, except for your dismissal of California. The location Itch describes sounds ideal, and it is in sparsely populated Mendocino Co.
Location and talent pool would help determine that. Mendocino is wine country isn't it? _________________ http://www.openspeech.org - please visit and post!
You people will debate for 10 years on this board before you get your crap together if you don't just say - hi - to one another in the real world and then say - ok - to equity contracts that would create a local farmstead that could support you all. If you eat, or live in a house, then you can afford owning part of one of these communities. There are people that WANT people to JUST be consumers, and will PAY YOUR WAY as an investor. Not everyone can be the farmer. But everyone needs to understand what the community is about. THAT is what a peak oil community will be about.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:24 am Post subject:
(Unless indicated otherwise, the following are purely my personal opinions, speaking as one individual member of the co-founding group with Itch, not speaking for anyone else or for the group as an entity.)
Buster, good points generally.
1a) Re. leadership: No charismatic leaders, agreed. We tend toward a practical attitude, a kind of non-ideological rationality. This project could best be described as an "intentional community" that operates more like a small village, rather than a "commune" in the sense of a large expanded family. Also there is not a common focus in terms of shared religion; we expect to be somewhat diverse in that area.
1b) Re. "pure democracy." That term can be interpreted in a number of ways, including formal consensus process. We're looking at various options that preserve representative and direct-input capabilities, but are also nimble and capable of acting in a practical manner quickly where needed.
One element I personally favor is the use of delegated authority with checks and balances. The community as a whole would make big-picture decisions, and delegate individuals with relevant expertise to act as project managers with appropriate authority to get their respective jobs done. In practice the big-picture decisions include allocating financial and other resources among necessary projects; and assuring that projects are undertaken within practical limits of budget, time, labor, etc. Individuals who are chosen to manage specific areas, should be able to proceed without a lot of overhead process.
2a) Roles well-defined: Yes, job titles and a clear org chart. This includes defining roles explicitly so that it is understood what is and isn't included in each.
2b) Switching roles can be useful **if** people have relevant competence. Otherwise it's a prescription for frequent problems due to lack of expertise. Cross-training should be possible, but not to an unlimited degree, i.e. considering the economic realities even under "normal" conditions, businesses and other entities don't survive if they're constantly in retraining mode, any more than if they become set in stone. What's important here is to maintain a balance.
Keeping in mind here that I'm talking about "content" roles (e.g. managing an agricultural operation, a water supply system, a local electrical grid, etc.) rather than "process" roles.
2c) Attitude items: Interestingly, I also came up with the phrase "sustainable prosperity" many years ago, so personally I think we're on the same page there. For me, the question of purpose in this case ultimately hinges on the development of sustainable ways of living and working, which are necessary in and of themselves.
However the entire concept of sustainability necessarily entails juxtaposition with its logical opposite, i.e. the knowledge that our species is presently skating on the thin edge of Earth's carrying capacity; and that we can't go on wasting resources, damaging systems, and believing a miracle will save us at the last minute. The key question is attitude in facing the anticipated challenges. I could go on a three-page digression about issues such as the emotional spectrum of attitudes, and how any of those can operate in a healthy or unhealthy manner, and how one tells the difference. (Maybe later)
3a) Re. auto-exclusions: Within reasonable boundaries. I would exclude anyone with a conviction for a violent crime, for example. I would also exclude sociopaths, bigots, pedophiles, cannibals, etc. In other words, people who have the potential to cause real harm to others.
As for someone's disabled dad, your standard is perfectly reasonable, i.e. they would have to take responsibility for having a personal assistant as needed. And then we would have to factor-in the added member (the personal assistant) as far as our carrying capacity was concerned.
The two relevant limits are ecological carrying capacity, and human labor input, and we need to be realistic about both in order to sustain a community's population. That is, if we have a limited number of slots, the need for a personal assistant occupies another slot, and then we probably have to recalculate the labor inputs to various productive processes accordingly. Theoretically there is an upper limit on the number of such instances that are possible, just as there's an upper limit on population in-aggregate on a given piece of land.
I am personally in favor of deliberately buying as much land as possible, and then deliberately setting initial group size as far below carrying capacity as possible, precisely to leave ample room for contingencies that lead to subsequent expansion of membership: kids, elders, extended family, etc., and the assumption that every member will eventually be old enough to need some kind of assistance. (See, we're not convinced we're going to die, in fact quite the opposite, we're convinced we're going to grow old enough to need some help around the house!:-)
3b) Teaching the unskilled is another case where a careful balance is needed: between the long-term investment in new skills, and the short-term need to get specific work done successfully. Ideal case is something like "on the job training," where both occur simultaneously. Otherwise, in some cases, it may be necessary to work during the day and learn at night.
3c) Self-selecting: Careful, that can become an exercise in "implicit social darwinism," which is the worst kind precisely because it's implicit and "social," therefore difficult to point out and challenge. Deliberately setting up arbitrary hoops to jump through has always struck me as distasteful and manipulative, similar to fraternity "hazing." Clearly there will be enough real hurdles to leap, i.e. empirical conditions that have to be dealt with, and to an extent that will create a selection matrix. But the criteria should be stated explicitly, and based on the "facts on the ground."
3d) Re. "Not California": We're all in California; and the practical realities are that we will need to be economically viable during the survey, permitting, and construction phases. Moving out of the state entails the risks associated with trying to settle in another state's economy with unknown downside conditions. Doing this without a very large capital reserve (financial capital, and/or direct support at the destination by a similar group already established) is almost a guarantee of failure. It's absurd to take these risks on the basis of "seeing who's serious," when we already have enough real (as opposed to arbitrary) hurdles to leap (see also above).
4) Business plan: Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. We all agree on this one, and I have a decent amount of experience in this area, so I think we're on solid ground in this area. However, any biz plan is at its core a refined set of "if / then" statements, the success of which depends on the degree to which the starting assumptions are accurate. So we still have a lot of empirical data collection to do, some of which is occuring this weekend. some of which is planned for the rest of this year and into next year. I'm assuming one to two years for biz plan & financing, which culminate in selection & purchase of land, followed by another year for zoning & permitting issues, and after that we can look forward to actually building stuff & moving in.
Other:
Buster: Mendocino isn't wine country per se, that's Napa County. Mendocino has a reputation for commercial marijuana farming, which we're not interested in.
Guest: In fact we are meeting in person, as well as via conference calls. We are just starting to get organized, so things are still preliminary, but we will develop the needed formalities over time. Slow & steady wins the race:-).
Guest: In fact we are meeting in person, as well as via conference calls. We are just starting to get organized, so things are still preliminary, but we will develop the needed formalities over time. Slow & steady wins the race:-).
gg3, in painting with a broad brush, any number of times I resisted the urge to sketch in some "fine lines." Your responses, particularly regarding "pure democracy," training, and exclusion, tally pretty much with the "expanded version" that I didn't write.
California as a location can be problematic, due to accessibility within such a highly populated state. Not only is security a difficult issue; you have to also consider what the state government, under emergency powers, may require of you. Location in a less populous state would be less worrisome in this regard, and the cost of real estate and taxes would both be less. Still, I understand CA is likely the most pragmatic choice in your particular circumstances. _________________ http://www.openspeech.org - please visit and post!
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