For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:10 pm Post subject: Meet your meat
Post collaspe society. What a horrid thought. Naturally, we're all planning on what to do, and topics of vegetables and gardens abound. And while its certainly an important aspect to focus on, I know that a vegetarian lifestyle does not interest me much. As such, lets focus on meats for a minute.
Animal selection neatly falls into 2 very critical categories. 1) How much space does the animal require 2) How much food does the animal require
Fortunately, these 2 categories are easy to estimate. The bigger the animal, the greater the food and space requirements. Fortunately, theres an abundance of animals even a small plot can support.
Rabbits. Rabbits are a fantastic animal, and I would recommend them for ANY sized homestead. One of the most attractive features of rabbits is their reproduction rate. Ever hear the term "Fvck like bunnies" Know why? Because bunnies do. And how. Additionally, rabbits require minimal space requirements AND food. If you have a backyard, you can support rabbits. When you factor in the high reproduction rate, small space and low food requirements, rabbits are a win win livestock. Also, the hides can be used as well.
Chickens. Another highly recommended animal. Poulty serves dual purpose, both providing food in the form of meat as well as eggs. Again, another low space low food requirement animal. Chickens are excellent scavengers and keep bugs down. Another bonus is the minimal amount of effort requireed to raise them due to the fact they just wander around the yard looking for food. Also, the feathers can be used in clothing and pillows.
This is about the limit of easy care animals. But, even this selection will provide an excellent addition to the dinner table.
Moving on the larger, more intensive animals, we have goats, sheep, pigs, cows and horses (We wont discuss out of the norm animals such as ostrich and lama, but again these are viable choices)
Goats, while rather a pain in the backside, are a decent choice although not my personal first. They can be used for meat, as well as goats milk being an excellent source of nutrients. Space requirements and food are less then larger animals such as cows.
Pigs, now theres one I like. Pigs in a natural environment are actually a fairly clean animal. And they provide an excellent source of meat. Especially bacon. I love bacon. They also require a fair amount of food.
Sheep, this is a big winner. Fairly easy to raise, not a large appetite and most importantly wool! Not only do you get mutton on the table, you get wool for clothing and blankets. And hand powered equipment to work wool is still available, if not common.
Cows are an excellent source of meat and milk due to their size. Unfortunately, their also a hungry animal. They require a good deal of space and manpower to raise. Trust me fellas, haulin hay when snow is buttcrack deep in the middle of winter is NOT FUN. Runnin fence line aint my favorite pasttime either. An average would be 7 acres of land per cow, and you may need to put up hay in the wintertime as well. I do feel the "return on investment" is worth it so to speak though, but I love steak and a tall glass of milk. Keep in mind, while the above animals would make a good to average "beginner" animal, cattle are not something the uninitiated should jump right into. At best you'll have average cattle, at worst they starve in the winter.
Horses can be used to for meat and other products, but their claim to fame is as a workhand. If you venture into the larger animals, you'll need to move them and raise food products specially set aside for them. This is where the horse excels. He can pull a plow and harvester, he can lift the hay into the loft. He can haul you to town. Pull your wagon. Do not underestimate the benefit of a good horse.
Additionally, all animals provide fertilizer for your garden. Even a small selection of animals such as a handful of rabbits and chickens can go a long way to having a full dinner table and lush garden. Most are readily available, and rabbits are even raised as pets so price is reasonable and food easily obtained at your local pet store.
Before purchasing an animal its best to put a good deal of effort into what you can fulfil in a post peak hard collapse soceity. If your not ready to spend hours on end in the fields raising hay, I'd avoid our larger selection of animals. If all you have is a small plot of land and little time for animal attendance, chickens in the yard and rabbits in cages are a worthwhile investment.
But if you have the time, patience and space the rewards of a good selection of animals is well worth it. Milk, butter, cream, meat, skins, wool, fertilizer...... The list is as long as your imagination.
Excellent topic specop. One thing I might add is that with most animals, even the larger ones, much of their food can be grown on your homestead. Things you would grow for yourself - the waste product is perfectly good forage for pigs or cows. Example - sunflowers. You can eat the seeds, they substitute for grain in an animal's diet, and the stalks make great pig food. Sunflower seeds are a good source of vitamin D, which benefits not only your animals, but you as well.
Carla Emery's Encyclopedia of Country Living has a great deal of information on raising animals (for eating) of just about every variety, including information on general care, diet, milking (cows and goats), butchering, and a million good recipes, including many food storage techniques.
I understand the vegan diet is the one favored by many when thinking about post-peak living, but for my family, meat is part of the diet. We don't eat a lot of meat compared to many, but we do use animal products such as milk, butter, cheese, and eggs.
We just moved out onto our place in March, but we currently have 15 chickens (2 roosters are going in the freezer soon - we're getting over run with them), and get enough eggs to supply us, my parents, and I also sell a couple dozen a week. Not a lot of money, mind you, but they pay for their own food.
We have plans by spring to purchase several steers to raise for the freezer and for selling. I may also get a milk cow. I say may, because I am also planning (in the next couple months) to get a couple dairy goats for our dairy needs.
If you don't eat meat, then obviously you don't have this to worry about. But, raising animals provides not only food for my family - but a sense of satisfaction as well. I have met my meat :D , and I know where it comes from.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:11 am Post subject:
Although some grains – beans, oats, wheat, provide protein, many are lacking in specific amino acids that can only be obtained from meat and dairy products.
On a smallholding, animals provide not only meat, dairy, eggs and textiles, but improve the overall efficiency of the land. Different animals prefer different forage, horses are picky, cows like longer grasses they can get their tongue around, sheep like short growing broad leaves they can bite with their front teeth and they will graze closer to cow flop than other cows will, goats prefer woody plants, etc.
Additionally, there are many feed sources in a well-maintained pasture that ruminates miss: slugs, grubs and insects that can only be utilized by chickens. In wet boggy areas that other animals ignore, duck and geese will thrive. And don’t forget the plow on the front end of a root-loving pig for clearing and renovating land.
And speaking of cow flop, even the best nitrogen fixing plants such as soybeans can only add so much fertility to the soil and will deplete the micronutrient level, over time. The only other homemade, non-petroleum based fertilizer is manure - a huge source of nitrogen as well as minerals pulled from the subsoil by deep-rooted pasture grasses. So even without the all the other advantages, animals are a requirement in a self-sustaining food producing system.
While concentrated monoculture is the cheapest way to produce while there is cheap oil, the opposite approach is required after cheap oil – integrated/permaculture/traditional, whatever you call it, just think the opposite of Tyson Foods or ADM or Cargil and you are on the right track. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: new / old cows
One of the things I found on the Internet awhile back is (are?) mini-cows (search google). Turns out that the cows you see now days are Arnold S. genetic freaks. A lot of the cows grown in the old country were these mini-cows which can be as small as 30 to 36 inches tall. One of the reasons given for the move from small to big cows was the advent of refrigeration. With a small cow, you get a lot less meat and you can keep it 'on-the-hoof'.
These cows also tend to be much gentler and easier to care for. Anyways, very interesting concept that I intend to try in the future.
Gotta love the internet for finding ways to think outside the box.
Joined: Aug 11, 2004 Posts: 56 Location: New-Brunswick, Canada
Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:14 pm Post subject:
Ah, very nice topic indeed. Thank you everyone for you contributed information.
Eating meat is a good idea if you plan to do intensive work in the future. Meat is without a doubt a great source of protein, hence, it helps one develop strength.
One thing though that I think I might mention, my grand-father was a lumberjack. Once, he wanted to start living on livestock. At first, it all went well, he was good at raising them. But... he had the biggest problem livestock farmers have; love for their animals. He couldn't kill them. He was so attached to them that he began to love them like a pet! Some farmers laughed at him although some understood.
What I meant to say is that producing meat is not meant for everyone. Unless you do like my grand-father and kill them and cry afterwards. After his animals were all sold or killed, he went back to lumberjacking and discovered woodcrafts after wards.
-May all beings find Happiness and may you be well.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
Kochevnik: THANK YOU! bigtime, for those mini cows! I love milk and ice cream, and enjoy beef in various forms frequently. I was not looking forward to a potential downside-scenario minus those things in my diet, and goat milk isn't the same.
Now the key questions are, what are the specific practices for milking these as compared to conventional cows, and how many are needed to have a self-replicating herd that won't inbreed itself into trouble?
Re. "pets" vs. "meat," and humane methods:
Apparently in many rural areas one can hire a butcher to do the entire deed, from slaughter to delivery of finished cuts of meat. Itch (one of the founders of our community planning group) recently pointed out that butchering is a skill that should be present in a community or within its range of trade relations.
A quick search under "humane slaughter" produced the following urls:
Dr. Grandin is apparently a professor at a university in Colorado and she has done extensive research in this area and designed humane slaughterhouse equipment.
So apparently there are methods, such as CO2 (yes, CO2) anaesthesia, that can be used to ensure a truly painless death, even in mass-production slaughterhouses. And, some of these methods also work for poultry (and therefore probably also for rabbits).
I'm going to write to Dr. Grandin and ask her about methods that would apply to small-scale production, i.e. slaughter of one or two animals at a time.
People involved with slaughter operations, and people who may be present as observers, should understand the physiology of death in these animals. Without going into details (which you can read in Dr. Grandin's papers), there are some signs that, to an untrained observer, appear to indicate consciousness but in fact do not, and vice-versa. Being properly informed will enable those involved with (or observing) slaughter operations to verify that animals are in fact rendered painlessly and immediately unconscious, and remain so until finally dead.
And then, folks, we can eat our mini-cattle steaks and burgers, as well as our chicken and rabbits and pork, without regret.
Just a quick clarifyer on the mini cattle and regular cattle. Regualr cattle you'd want around 7-10 acres of land PER HEAD, AND put up some feed in the winter. Those cows would probably require around half that, so figure 3-5 acres per head and some land set aside to grow winter feed.
In other words, if you have a subdivision sized plot and bought some of these expect to buy feed for them.
Although some grains – beans, oats, wheat, provide protein, many are lacking in specific amino acids that can only be obtained from meat and dairy products.
Hmmm, seems to me that beans and corn complement each other, each providing the amino acids that the other lack. Many a person, especially south of the border, have been raised almost completely on beans and corn.
I'm not a vegetarian, but the general rule is that at each stage of food conversion, you divide by 10. Thus, 100 lbs of oats makes 10 lbs of beef which makes 1 lb of human flesh. If you fed the 100 lbs of oats to humans it would make 10 lbs of human flesh. This info might be handy if food gets scarce.
The topic of small livestock raising of rabbits, chicken and worms is an important part of this microfarming model: Google search ecosyn.us microfarming
I find it absolutely fascinating and the author makes some great points here:Ecological Synergy
b) --- The vegetarian myth is disproved. Although Eco-Syn uses small livestock (rabbits, fish, ducks, chickens) which have a high ratio of putting on weight compared to feeds consumed, it is often stated that meat produces one-fourth to one-tenth the food that eating lower on the food chain, i.e., eating vegetables. However, animals who transform one-fourth of their foot into meat transform three-quarters of their food in manures (high value fertilizer if properly managed and used) which is transformed into humus which is later transformed into crops for both livestock and people.
Ecology recycles everything eventually, and Eco-Syn uses intelligence to transform inert minerals, air and water into increased biota through feeding the microherd a full diet including animal wastes. There is more life created into existence out of the dead planetary chemistry through Ecological Synergy than vegetarians are able to account for with their tired false myth.
Joined: Apr 03, 2004 Posts: 6374 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:18 am Post subject:
Codeman you are exactly right, the natives called corn, beans and squash “The Three Sisters”, and planted them together. The corn provided a trellis for the beans and the squash shaded the ground conserving moisture. Corn provides some Lysine (I think) that beans lack and you certainly can get by on them – I got big and fat as a kid eating mostly cornbread and beans – but I sure would have missed the milk and butter!
And your conversion is correct as well, however the thing that ruminants can do that we can’t is eat grasses, and in some locations grass and hay is about all that will grow. Another benefit of pasturing animals is that it is much less labor AND energy intensive way to make food than farming. Of course, like every other strategy, it doesn’t fit every situation.
As far as butchering goes, I hate it, but then I hate hoeing weeds too. It seems most folks enjoy their McChicken as long as they don’t have to know the crappy life institutional chickens live – no matter how tough their death is; it’s certainly easier than their life. Any animal raised on a small farm by a thinking person will have a far better life than ANY raised in a dry lot or egg factory.
BTW everyone, please limit the long quotes, just short snips, a link and your comments please. _________________ Make a plan and work it:
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:08 am Post subject:
Interesting stuff.
I vaguely recall reading that mini-cows only require an acre each, but I'll go check.
Understood about the protien conversion ratios. I don't expect to be having steak every week. Probably a mostly-veggie caloric intake, where meat is used e.g. in stews and so on, as a very small part of each meal, and a main course only occasionally. Steak on the 4th of July.
Milk on the other hand, that's a daily staple, at least for me.
gg,
That is how we use meat now. For example, last night we grilled 4 chicken breasts. For dinner we ate one (between the two of us) with a lot of veggies. My husband took one to work for his lunch today, along with leftover veggies. I will use one tonight chopped up in a stir fry or perhaps mexican chicken, and he'll take the last one to work tomorrow. So, what would normally feed a family for one meal - or in our case two meals, since there are only two of us in the house, we stretch to four. I rarely ever have meat as a main dish in my meals. It's generally a small part of the larger meal. But, that being said, we also drink milk daily, and use cheese and eggs often.
I have chickens for the eggs, but will need to get a milk cow or some milk goats for the dairy part of our diet. That's yet another thing on my plans list.
Kathy
Although some grains – beans, oats, wheat, provide protein, many are lacking in specific amino acids that can only be obtained from meat and dairy products.
sorry for offtopic but i just wanted to nuance this a little more:
Although some grains – beans, oats, wheat, provide protein, many are lacking in specific amino acids that can be more easily obtained from meat instead of combining beans with grains and other vegetable protein sources.
which is quite hard to do post peak (though possible).
Joined: Oct 19, 2004 Posts: 108 Location: Carlisle, PA
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject:
I agree that rabbits are an excellent source.
Chickens too. They don't produce nearly as much meat, but you get eggs too.
Larger animals are problematic in that putting up a pig or a cow without electricity is one hell of a lot of work. They really only make sense to me in a scenario where they're butchered very close to winter so that much of the meat can "keep" in an outdoor cache.
Large animals make more sense in a community situation where you have a lot of people to do the work.
However, I consider a cow indispensable. Aside from the milk and the meat from the annual calf, there is also their use as draft animals. Granted one *could* use horses as draft animals, just I'd rather drink cow milk and eat cow meat.
Cows are easier to manage than horses too which is a big point when using as a draft animal.
A cow eats a *lot* of food... requiring pasture plus making hay and storing root vegetables for overwinter. But it provides a lot of food too. And the amount of milk from one cow, being terribly excessive, can be used to feed to rabbits, chickens and pigs too. Thus you get rabbit, chicken, pork and beef from a cow's production in addition to more than enough milk, cheese and butter.
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Some farmers laughed at him although some understood.
After his animals were all sold or killed, he went back to lumberjacking and discovered woodcrafts after wards. 
