'Collapse' Jared Diamond

jmacdaddio · Heavy Crude Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 213

This is a good book which outlines the basic reasons why some societies fail in the face of resource challenges (Easter Island, Greenland Norse, Rwanda - very much a resource issue when you look past ethnic strife). He also shows how societies succeed in the face of resource issues or at the very least come to terms with their surroundings (Japan, Iceland Norse, certain New Guinea tribes). Interestingly oil extraction when done right can have little environmental impact (at least at the drilling and shipping sites - greenhouse gas is another story) and Chevron has a good reputation for being a clean-drilling firm. Mining is much more devastating to its surroundings. The book comes down in some ways to explaining mining vs. harvesting ... often we think we're harvesting crops, fish, timber, etc. when in reality we are mining the source until it's gone.

Great book even though it will be a case of preaching to the choir for a lot of folks here.

Jack · Dark Lord Joined: Aug 11, 2004 Posts: 4970

I agree - it's not a small book, but superbly written. Anyone who hasn't read it needs to!
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albente · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Aug 20, 2004 Posts: 1338

Richard Heinberg wrote a good review about this book:
http://www.museletter.com/archive/154.html

JLK · Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject:

I just finished the book. I enjoyed the historical accounts of failed civilizations such as the Greenland Norse, the Anasazi and the inhabitants of Easter Island. That part was really interesting, and Diamond really did his homework.

I thought that the end of the book was somewhat weak. Analogies between a situation like the last tree being cut down on Easter Island and undesirable modern conditions such as cyanide leaching from old mines just don't do it for me, but that is exactly what Diamond tries to get away with. The latter is a problem, of course, but it hardly threatens our civilization with collapse.

Essentially, then, I enjoyed the book for the facts that it provided but I found the overall contemporary message to be somewhat dubious. Now if Diamond would have spent more time on oil depletion.........
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Revi · Fusion Joined: Apr 25, 2005 Posts: 3112 Location: Maine

This was a great book, but shouldn't be used as a prediction of our collapse. It talks about small, islolated societies that collapsed suddenly. Ours may go the route of the Roman Empire. Rome went from a huge city to a small town, but it took 400 years. Things will slowly fall apart.

I_Like_Plants · Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: I highly recommend it!

I found it for $20 new in the local mom'n'pop book shop and it's a great read!

He really speaks up for the superiority of hunter/gatherer and smalltime farming+hunter/gatherer cultures over time.

Remember he's the Guns Germs and Steel guy and it's recommended to read that first, because the 2nd book ties in to the first.

I like his explanation of why he things New Guinea tribesmen are smarter than the average Caucasian North American/Western European. He says the New Guinians' having to think on their feet all the time and survive their constant fighting, vs. most Caucasians' having survived by having the genes to survive plagues, makes the New Guinea'ans crafty and mentally (as well as physically) agile while the Caucasians come out a bit dumber but more germ-resistant. I find this funny, and have to agree with his logic, even though most of us have been conditioned to believe a guy standing there in a dirty loin cloth in the mud of a sweet potato farm might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. Au contraire!

The arguement I've taken away from this book is that our modern nation-state is a short-lived type of "civilization" that historically has not survived. Nation-states tend to use up their surrounding resources and die off. Meanwhile, the hunter-gatherers who do a bit of farming or semi-farming (spread seeds and enhance the landscape but are not land-bound) historically have done the best, surviving for tens of thousands of years and perhaps hundreds. The implication is that as a lasting civilization, the modern nation-state is a dead end. We'd better look at how we can live more spread-out, more locally, and more tribally. At most we might live like the Amish, and there is not Supreme Ruler Of The Amish or Amish Army etc.

MD · Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:30 pm Post subject:

Revi · Fusion Joined: Apr 25, 2005 Posts: 3112 Location: Maine

I guess not. We are in trouble. I have been thinking that things could get bad in a hurry in the US. No mass transit, cars that get low miles per gallon, not much of a sense of community. On the other hand, we will get creative in an emergency. Things will change.

julianj · Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:

I have just finished the book. I think it's essential reading for people on this board.

Although I agree that the global crisis that we face has no precedent in the past, it does seem to me that some of the things that doomed previous societies are here in spades:

Ecological damage, climate change, and ruling castes who are resolutely failing to address the problem.

Tuike · Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject:

Leanan · News Editor Joined: May 20, 2004 Posts: 4490

Fascinating as the descriptions of collapse were, the most useful parts of the book may be the descriptions of cultures that have succeeded. It's not easy, but it's possible. There are cultures that have existed sustainably for thousands of years - harvesting, not mining, their natural resources.

The secret? Well, there are many, but probably the most important is population control. Zero population growth is seen as a virtue, and in order to reach it, sustainable cultures practice celibacy, birth control, abortion, infanticide, suicide, and warfare. On one island, the king has declared a maximum population limit, and people are sent off the island if this number is exceeded.

Another thing that struck me...the sustainable societies Diamond describes all lead fairly isolated existences. Most are on islands - New Guinea, Tikopia, Iceland, Japan. Others are isolated by geography, such as the Inuit. I suspect this is not a coincidence. The problem is that if you are leading a low-energy, sustainable existence, and your neighbors are not, they will come over and take your resources with their superior numbers once their own run out. I'm not sure how we are going to keep that from happening.

Doly · Expert Joined: Dec 03, 2004 Posts: 4031

Leanan · News Editor Joined: May 20, 2004 Posts: 4490

rostov · Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:55 am Post subject:

Just read half of the book in the library, jumping away from several chapters which we're all aware of already. A few quick thoughts.

Firstly, it's why Tikopia survived. In parallel to Montequest's message on teamspeak + forum on a consensus for ZPG, this island community already gets it. Active abortion / pregnancy prevention methods (fav rave : "Coitus Interruptus") + active killing of babies when born. Volunteer-based suicide, or allowing mass virtual suicide when one clan choose to die rather than be murdered by another clan. I've gotta spend some time digesting this in my quest to answer my own question : "Who and how do we choose the 9 out of 10 that need to be pushed out of a sinking boat?"

The second thing that irked me is this : all this materials on his book, with obvious signs of overshoot in population and resource depletion, and he calls himself an optimist?

Interestingly Richard Heinberg's summary of the book is quite accurate. I like also the fact on amazon that those who bought this book or tainter's book also had the following bought :

Novus · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Jun 21, 2005 Posts: 1646

This book just came out in paper back and it is an excellent read. This is not just a peak oil book but a Peak Everything book. No conplex society has ever collapsed because of the over exploitation of a single resource be it modern oil or the Trees on Easter Island and Greenland.

Jared Diamond documents the twelve components that lead to societal collapse. The societies of Greenland, Easter Island, Ankor Watt, and Mayan America completely distroyed the entire ecologies their civilizations needed to survive. When people over exploit an ecological system it tends to completely collapse taking the people and civilization with it. Easter Island and Greenland once had lush forests but today are barron rocks in the ocean. The fertile cresent in Iraq, Syria, and Lebonon was once the bread basket of the ancient world. Today it is a desert. The same process that distroyed the ancient civilizations is alive and well today. The ecosystems in Rawanda and Somalia are in a state of ongoing collapse and the human populations are crashing into genocide and dieoff.

The process is also comming to the First World for not even America is immune. He uses the case of Montana which was once one of the richest states because of its vast natural resources but is now the second poorest because of over exploitation. The forests have all either been clearcut or are unhealthy tinder boxes because of poor forest management in harvesting the old growth trees. Montana's 20,000 abandoned copper and gold mines will leach leathal doses or cynide and arsenic into into the water sheds for 100,000 years. Over 90% of the fish in the lakes and rivers are now dead and many ponds have become toxic waste dumps from the mines. The once fertile soil is now encrusted with salt from the distruction of complex root systems. Many wells that once produced clean drinking water now produce water twice as salty as seawater. Montana which was once a great exporter of Timber, Mined metals, and Farm goods is now an inporter of these things. The economy is almost entirely tourism based now with rich people building summer homes where farms once stood. If Montanta were isolated from the rest of the world its' economy and population would have already crashed and died off.

Similar proped up dead zones exist all over the world including Europe, China, India, and Austrailia. Easter Island, and Greenland and others did not die-off all at once but had occurances of dead zones or abandoned farmland and fisheries long before the main die-off. After the oldest exploited lands were abandoned for less spoiled zones the entire ecollogy collapses as the unspoiled areas were quickly distroyed and stripped until there was nothing left but barren rock. The entire earth going through a similar process until it will be completely stripped and left as a dead rock in space.