How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:12 am Post subject: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric boost
So how could people in suburbs manage to get to their places of employment, assuming they remain employed?
We all know about buses, and about limited light rail to some suburbs. But the automobile is not easy to replace most low density suburbs. Bikes can work, though rain and winter put a damper on all but the hardiest.
Enter the all-weather human powered vehicle, which has been catching on in Europe over the last decade.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:30 am Post subject:
Yes, all of the above.
If the basic chassis/body design works as a pedal/electric hybrid, it will also work as a pure electric or possibly as a gas/electric hybrid.
If the shape is optimized for speed under human power, it will also be highly fuel efficient with other powertrain options.
I think there's a potential problem with the front wheel placement; it's too far back from the nose of the vehicle; I wonder if this may cause some of the weird handling issues such as fishtailing...?
I also wonder if this design has enough ground clearance to get over speed-bumps and poorly-designed driveway entrances (the latter are endemic in California...)?
Also needed will be a more utilitarian version for people who need to carry more than a briefcase. The present designs resemble sports cars, which are nice in their own right, but we need something similar to a little hatchback that can carry maybe four to six cubic feet of stuff. A 2-seater would be nice but may be more complicated than this design concept allows.
The engineering & business potential of these things is IMHO wide-open and will lead to some really interesting designs over the next couple of decades.
We have to get all the !@#$%&&!! SUVs off the road; those things are a hazard to everything smaller than themselves. And we have to do something about the psychological BS behind the myth that driving a monster is somehow intrinsically safe. Downsize the entire vehicle fleet and then people should feel better about piloting tiny microcars around in city traffic.
Last but not least: Parking & security. The unpleasant fact is that the crime rate in the USA is sky high compared to Europe. So we need locks on the hatch, and some kind of tamper alarm, and ideally we also need secured parking areas. And while we're at it we need tougher laws, enforcement, and sentencing for vandalism, burglary, and theft involving these types of ultra-light vehicles as well as bicycles.
So there's a lot of work to be done on this front as well as every other; but in the long run, it will be done, or we'll be done for.
Joined: May 02, 2005 Posts: 3249 Location: One more question...
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:38 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
I would like one with a full battery drive, integrated wheel motor, and solar powered charger.
Who was the manufacturer of the integrated wheel motor scooter due in the US from Germany next year? Anyone?
I have my $4k purchase price ready! _________________ "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Robert A. Heinlein
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
Skyemore -
That has to be a major design advance, capable not only of 'stretching' for greater accom but also of methanol FC drive as well as other drives listed above.
As it stands it looks highly desirable in wealthy nations, while the problem we face is of course global. So I'm wondering what price a soft-top hillbilly version might be made for in, say, India ?
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:26 pm Post subject:
gg3 wrote:
Also needed will be a more utilitarian version for people who need to carry more than a briefcase.
There are other manufacturers with extra storage space. And they also manufacture small trailers and luggage racks for these.
Quote:
A 2-seater would be nice but may be more complicated than this design concept allows.
A tandem design was prototyped by another manufacturer, but I don't know about production runs. Here the prototype was demo'd before the canopy was completed.
If you want to take the whole family (four people) for a ride, then;
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
I posted this in a topic on one passenger diesel cars and figured it will be relevent here:
I think the ideal one-passenger vehicle would be a human-electric hybrid or a pure electric bicycle built for high performance that incorporates the use of laminar flow in its design. Look at the following bicycles:
300-500 watts of human pedal power is enough to take these to over 60 mph. Including rider they weigh about 200-250 pounds depending upon weight of the rider.
Imagine say, a 5-10 kW electric drive to where such a vehicle could hit 120+ mph from the power produced and a 3 kWh lithium ion battery pack that could take this vehicle about 100+ miles on battery power alone. The vehicle would weigh about 275-325 pounds including rider. It would be cheap to build and could be advertised as a high performance motorcycle, only to go city speeds, the rider could choose to comfortably pedal it at their liesure around 20-30 mph, but for rapid acceleration or when they take it onto the highway, they could go as fast at they wanted with the electric drive.
And for those who don't like the pedal feature, it could be made an option. Either way, that would make one wicked electric-powered bike.
10 kW of power from an electric motor in a 275-325 pound vehicle including weight of rider? That would accelerate from 0-60 mph in about 8 seconds, would be very fun to drive, and have a dangerous top speed for the type of vehicle it is. Add to that incredible efficiency and you're set for a new type of high performance motorcycle, that is basically an enclosed bicycle. Need more power? How does a 30-40 kW electric drive(and the batteries to make use of it) sound? Add inthe option of pedal power for low speeds and you're set. Like a scooter on crack that doesn't look anything like a scooter. _________________ The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:56 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
gnm wrote:
Very cool... But don't those become rather unstable around 30mph?
There are a tremendous number of trikes produced around the world. This particular model has been entered in races (human power only) where the average speed for an hour was 45km/hr and the cyclist was in his late forties. Other similar fully faired recumbents have been raced at 70km/hr for an hour's duration. Velomobiles have been over 80 mph.
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/cv_03.html
Quote:
I am afraid that would be a sauna in the summer as well.. I can imagine pedalling that up a steep hill in 100F weather with full sun.. Ugh. But I guess you could have a regular bike for those days.
You don't have to ride with the top on. Indeed, most people wouldn't unless of weather concerns.
Quote:
It seems an electric assist or even full drive would be easy to equip on something like that.
The electric assist is already an option.
And there is a wide selection to pick from;
The tradeoffs are primarily speed, comfort, visibility, and handling.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
backstop wrote:
As it stands it looks highly desirable in wealthy nations, while the problem we face is of course global. So I'm wondering what price a soft-top hillbilly version might be made for in, say, India ?
Any ideas ?
I would refer you to the manufacturers to answer that question. In lieu of a fancy bike with full fairing, Indian bikers can utilize what they've found to work for them so far. I can't solve every problem, just trying to show what options are available.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1365 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
There are a wide variety of options when it comes to human powered vehicles with electric boost, including foldable electric bikes, and kits to add boost to one's existing bike;
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
I have a Giant Lite Comfort electric assist bike and I find it excellent. Cycling is dangerous on our narrow roads though because of asshole drivers. My bike and I are looking forward to €10 a gallon petrol _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Joined: May 02, 2005 Posts: 3249 Location: One more question...
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: Re: [Transportation] Human powered vehicles with electric b
I recently gave up my 50 mile commute for a one mile commute. I am currently shopping for my next primary transport. I am looking at full eletric motorcycle/scooters and electric assist bicycles.
The new intgrated electric from Germany is my first choice, but it is the most expensive option. _________________ "Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Robert A. Heinlein
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