Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: PO.com "United we stand"
So here we are, us dedicated posters and readers of PO.com. The great and the not so great, the old, the young, the brave and the bold.
Most of us, even the hardened optimists believe that we have a problem.
Most of us, are planning for a difficult future and rightly so (nothing lost by being prepared).
Many of us believe that any future problems would be hugely mitigated by getting the word out to the masses now.
Many of us have tried to do this and been unsuccessful.
Is there any way that we can utilise the body of knowledge on this website and the strength of our diversity to start making a difference to TPTB.
My opinion for example is that if our government (Ireland) started receiving hundreds of emails etc. from citizens of other countries telling them that their energy policies etc. were a joke it would make a bigger difference than Irish people complaining about the exact same thing. National pride factor would kick in. I know that foreign citizens don't have the power of a vote but does anyone see what I'm getting at .....
US congressmen receiving similar emails from Europeans might have the same affect in the US.
We should identify areas where by combining our influence and knowledge we can begin to effect policy.
Sorry about this, just feeling particularly small and useless today. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
I don't expect the government or business to do anything about peak oil unless it is profitable for them to. And I don't expect my fellow Americans to change their habits any - after all, they still smoke and are getting more obese by the minute, so why should they be bothered to worry about some intangible, distant threat when they can't even deal with their own immediate health?
I only look to this group for information on personal preparation, but that's just me.
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Quote:
US congressmen receiving similar emails from Europeans might have the same affect in the US.
We should identify areas where by combining our influence and knowledge we can begin to effect policy.
I've given up. After three substantial pieces in a local paper and letters to senators, I've decided now just to inform my friends.
I think "policy" is about to become extinct. _________________ "By the time individuals discover that remaining resources will not be adequate for the next generation, the next generation has already been born. " David Price
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Madpaddy - Small & Useless ?
While I've no means of knowing your hight,
it plainly has no bearing on your usefulness !
That's the one of the most constructive ideas I've seen on this site.
To be of impact, such messages need a common focus of proposal, as well as warning of PO. As a believer in the power of the precedent, it seems to me that the establishment of novel sustainable energy systems on pilot-project scale is a critical global shift. I'd suggest this focus for such email campaigning.
What are your thoughts ?
Given Jevon's Paradox, it is those countries that have ratified Kyoto and so accepted a cap on and cut of fossil fuel emissions that have taken a bit of a step beyond Jevon, and so seem particularly suitable as recipients. Of them, I'd suggest it is the smaller states, with motivations of self-help and of showing initiative, that may be most receptive. (Eire's Wave energy initiate a case in point). Of course, most states globally were not eligible to join Kyoto, and there'll be many potentially useful candidates among them.
Like Dublin, both Cardiff & Edinburgh look promising to me.
Joined: May 24, 2004 Posts: 3428 Location: California, USA
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
I suspect that emails from other countries to US officials may not even be read, or may provoke some of them to even greater heights of stubborn hubris (if such a thing can be imagined). And personally I would be a bit shy about myself as a US citizen (read: subject of the New Empire) writing to foreign leaders, lest it be interpreted as another case of the same national hubris in a different direction.
What Americans need to write to foreign leaders is an apology for our own national policies that encourage profligate waste of resources.
As far as an overarching policy direction for *us here* to pursue, my thoughts on this are:
Consider the inertia of population growth, resource consumption, and ecological impacts notably on climate. Consider the enormous institutional vested interests behind each of these. I've been coming to believe that these inertial masses are too large to turn around as far and as fast as needed to avert collapse.
That is, even if the world's political and economic leaderships all woke up tomorrow and decided to do whatever they could to stop the train wreck, it's already too late.
The best we can hope for is to minimize the extent and duration of the damage. Toward that end I believe it's time to go directly for the Azimov's Foundation Strategy: small groups, linked together, joined in the common purpose of a) preserving knowledge and b) subtly nudging the vast mass of humanity toward a more sustainable course.
This is a multi-generational project and will take much self-discipline. At this point I don't see another way forward.
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Killjoy,
That was my whole point. Your letters to the senators probably got examined for the softness and pliability of the paper they were written on so as to assess their potential for use as toilet paper. That is because you can be dismissed as an annoying crank. If many letters from many countries arrived at those senators desks, they would be harder to ignore.
gt1370a,
How about this for a headline to jolt your obese citizens.
PEAKOIL means you may soon be unable to watch TV.
backstop,
Thanks for your support. What sort of "novel" sustainable energy project do you have in mind. As regards potential, Ireland is one of the best places to be. The wind resource is the second best in Europe after Scotland and the population is small. People generally are receptive to new ideas. It is the bureaucracy which is the problem but here again the government may be keen to be seen to be proactive. A Tv series here which has highlighted the rip off mentality of the country has proved extremely damaging to the government. I reckon, a high profile and specifically targeted campaign (our environment minister) could produce real dividends. We have so far to go here.
1. No tax rebates or grants for renewable energy systems.
2. Little or no competition in energy sector.
3. Useless public transport system. It is cheaper to fly from Dublin to Paris with Ryanair than to take a train journey from Dublin to Cork (our second city).
BTW: I am small (only 168cm) but as we say here.... its not the size of the man in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the man that counts. _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Ok, at this point, if anyone still thinks there is not a problem worthy of some action, please log off the internet, put down your snack, and jump out of the nearest 3rd story or higher window because you are part of the problem. For the rest of us... Here is how to find and contact your local representative in congress. Write a letter. Make a phone call. Send an e-mail. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Tell your congressperson that you want your public utilities to stay PUBLIC. Tell them that you want energy issues to be the most important thing on their plates. Tell them that the time to look past this issue is long gone. Tell them that the new energy bill fails to provide a safe and sustainable energy future for America. Tell them you want REAL progress made in lowering our demand for oil and lessening our demand for foreign oil. Tell them to support the Uppsala Protocol in order to avoid oil wars, terrorism, and economic collapse.
Joined: Aug 17, 2005 Posts: 576 Location: Portugal
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
People will prepare and look for alternatives. Albeit only when it's cheaper to produce energy from alternatives than from oil.
It may be too later for a smooth transition at that stage, though. But what can you do? Mankind has only left the jungle 10 000 years ago. That's too little time to become truly adult.
Still, I have high hopes we can cross into the post-oil age with minimal inconvenience.
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
dont bother telling anyone or writing anything. you'll achieve precisely zero.
governments dont listen to their citizens - they only be nice to them once every few years so that they'll vote for them and in the meantime they follow their own ideas of how to run things.
anyway, the effects of peak oil are unknown and i would say unknowable. why on earth would any average person who is more worried about paying rent/mortgages etc. be bothered about something that may not happen until 2040 and may not have any effect anyway?
in general, people can barely think past their next meal and actively decide not to think too far into the future because they dont want to think about change and death.
Joined: Nov 23, 2004 Posts: 119 Location: Nottingham UK
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Madpaddy wrote:
My opinion for example is that if our government (Ireland) started receiving hundreds of emails etc. from citizens of other countries telling them that their energy policies etc. were a joke it would make a bigger difference than Irish people complaining about the exact same thing. National pride factor would kick in. I know that foreign citizens don't have the power of a vote but does anyone see what I'm getting at .....
I see what you're getting at, however during the last presidential election campaign a number of Gurdian readers sent emails to voters in a marginal area in the Ohio in an effort to swing votes away from George Bush. This backfired somewhat as the voters were offended by what was seen as interference by foreigners and proceeded to vote for Bush anyway.
How do you think it would be received if I, an Englishman, started writing to the Irish authoritires critising Irish energy policy?
On a more serious note, a similar process is used by Amnesty International to campaign on behalf of political prisoners. All correspondence is sent from outside the country where the prisoner is held so that the writer can freely express opinions without fear of retribution.
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
gg3,
I just read your post. It is hard to disagree with what you have said but at least if everyone was aware, they would understand what is happening to them, which may be some small comfort.
Awareness would also reduce the squandering of remaining resources.
ie. Do we really need plastics to be used in toys???
Do we really need to take that vacation???
Do we really need to print 10million newspapers when they can be read online???
etc.
Where you think we should go and where I think we should go re. small communities are the same. However, I view my whole country as being one small community !!! _________________ www.askaboutenergy.com
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
whereagles wrote:
Mankind has only left the jungle 10 000 years ago. That's too little time to become truly adult.
And how long, according to you, would it take mankind as a species to become truly adult?
Anyway, I've seen enough irresponsible adults and responsible children to become convinced that responsibility and adulthood are only vaguely connected, if there's any connection at all.
Joined: Nov 23, 2004 Posts: 119 Location: Nottingham UK
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
linlithgowoil wrote:
anyway, the effects of peak oil are unknown and i would say unknowable. why on earth would any average person who is more worried about paying rent/mortgages etc. be bothered about something that may not happen until 2040 and may not have any effect anyway?
Do you really believe this or is it just wishful thinking?
Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:26 am Post subject: Re: PO.com "United we stand"
Okay,
A lot of negativity which believe me I understand and everyone has made good and valid points. I tend to disagree with the belief that foreigners writing to politicians is going to backfire. For example when the Guardian readers tried to influence people voting in the US elections that is interference in the sovereign affairs of a country. Writing to a politician pointing out deficiencies in an energy policy (read NO policy) is a different matter IMO. Telling a working man how he should vote (good luck with that) is not the same as telling him how he can change his lifestyle habits thereby saving himself money and helping to save the planet at the same time.
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