For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1195 Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Its very frightening to turn your back on the way everyone else is doing things. It feels 'safe' in the crowd and takes a great deal of courage, energy and ongoing commitment to turn 180 degrees from where everyone else is going, often in the face of criticism and opposition from family and friends. Especially doing it alone.
I have to admit I'm still balking away from taking the plunge into totally changing my life. I'm already considered a bit of a nut with my strange ideas, I think when I do eventually move to a small bit of ground outside the city and start building a mud hut, they are going to threaten me with 'nice young men in clean white coats' and padded-walled appartments. _________________ Kind regards, Katkinkate
"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka
Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
SurvivalAcres wrote:
Ancient civilizations had it much better then we do and we could return to this if needed - if we don't totally screw things up between now and then - which we might.
SurvivalAcres,
Thank you for a thought-provoking post. I can relate very well to pretty much everything you say here, and I thoroughly share your frustration. The difference is that I'm coming at this from the "opposite" angle. I've found myself very frustrated with the naive idealism of many in the "intentional community" and eco-village movement (and even my own rapidly fading idealism), and have moved more toward a "survivalist" mentality over time. Neither "side" really suits me, however; I've grown so weary of the ideological battles and what you call the "flash-in-the-pan" types that I can't really place myself in either of those camps. I call myself a doomer, but I hardly fit the stereotype.
My companion and I own some land in Oregon, chosen partly with post-crash survival in mind. We recently tried to start an ecovillage from the ground up, quite literally. In spite of our best efforts and immense amounts of research, planning, and sheer determination, we failed. The hardest part of getting a group together, I think, is finding the right mix of people. Even with skilled, intelligent, committed, and like-minded people (which we had), it is damn hard for people raised in an insane culture like this to pull this off.
To add to the difficulty, we faced out-and-out ridicule from certain family members, and endless "well-meaning" but annoying advice from friends who thought we were out of our minds to quit our jobs and try to drop out of society. Eventually it got to a point where we avoided some of these people, because it was awfully draining to be on the defensive all the time. This contributed to isolation, which certainly didn't help.
Another curious thing: since we tried to do this, we've become a lightning rod for people's unfulfilled dreams. When they hear we're building a tiny cabin in the forest, they say "oh, I've always wanted to do that, but..." and then launch into a lengthy justification of why they simply can't. The kids aren't out of school yet, hubby wouldn't go for it, maybe when I win the lottery, etc. I realize that debt slavery and all kinds of other things come into play here, and I know there is some truth to these justifications in some cases. But the frequency with which we are subjected to these "explanations" from perfectly capable people suggests to me that there are a whole lot of unfulfilled people out there who would rather offer excuses than go for the brass ring, so to speak. It's all very sad. Thoreau was right when he said the masses live lives of quiet desperation.
Anyway, I don't know if the larger problem is that most people refuse to help themselves, but I do get the sense that few people are willing to start things from the ground up and put in the time, work, and money that is required to take that route. Most prefer to join something that's already built. We as a culture are indeed quite addicted to our petroleum-fueled way of life and the mentality that goes with it. It is very hard for addicts to give up their addictions even under the best conditions. I suspect that the harsh reality is that most people will refuse (whether by simple inertia or neglect, inability, lack of social support, or lack of willpower) to change their way of life until TSHTF for them personally, and of course by then it will be far too late.
Humans are definitely tribal creatures, and I think ancient tribes got it right the first time. A small portion of us could "return" to this way of life (but puh-leeeze don't get me started ranting about the "you can't go back" and the "don't romanticize the noble savages" crowd)! There are small groups of very courageous people who are trying to do it - drop out of society completely, or at least as much as possible. I count myself among this group, but my track record isn't too good so far despite immense effort. It is MUCH harder than it may seem, psychologically and otherwise.
One of the biggest problems is, as you say, the social one - finding serious people who are willing to make the break. So many of us are living in "nuclear" families and are isolated. How do we un-learn this way of life? Frankly, I suspect few people are going to do it.
Even those who are truly serious about it and not just playing Internet games, as you put it, face immense challenges. Only the most fortunate, diligent, and determined people will manage to pull this off, I think. There probably are a few (VERY few!) here who are serious about it, but when push comes to shove, they may balk. I'm not even sure about my own level of commitment lately. I've done an immense amount of soul-searching on this, and there are many times when I wonder if it wouldn't be better to "go down with the ship" instead of putting all my time and attention into trying to build a lifeboat, if you catch my drift.
Still, something stubborn inside me insists that I've got to keep plugging and hope for the best (yet continue to plan for the worst, of course). So I don't intend to give up, despite my frustration and the fact that I seriously waver at times.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with building a community. If my experience is any indication, you're going to need it.
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Great response. You said a lot of things that resonate with me. I too, have given serious thought to "going down with the ship". And you also said, "How do we un-learn this way of life? Frankly, I suspect few people are going to do it." Agree. Maybe even me, try as I might.
I've lived the survivalist lifestyle and can say with experience that it's not as satisfying as I'd hoped. Anything that is counter-culture is a challenge, but I think some lifestyles are more of a challenge then others, this being one of them.
I also know people who have simply dropped-out entirely (there is a Yahoo group dedicated to this). Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I've explored the options out there, including being a corporate wage slave, I did that too for many years. In the end, I've found that I'm much better suited to dancing to my own drum and more or less, rejecting all the rest.
My expectations, as it were, are that other people would also realize what I've come to realize, and I suspect that I'm simply asking for too much. My points of view on civilization, society, modern living and such are not popular. People are unfulfilled and even frustrated, but they've yet to make the mental and spiritual journey to understand the source for their discontent. At least, that's how I see it. And I'm not really interested in helping them on their way. I did that once, as indicated in my first post on this thread and it is exhausting. Call me selfish, but I'm tired of trying to effect change!
I've got the energy left to change myself (I hope), and there's plenty of change in me that I'm looking forward to. Actually, I believe that you can only really change yourself anyway, everything else is just seeds planted along the way.
So eco is out and survivalism is dead - what's the happy medium? We've been where we're going...
I also agree on the tribal culture. We've lost this identity and I suspect many of us want it back. _________________ SurvivalAcres Blog
Joined: May 15, 2005 Posts: 4144 Location: THE MATRIX
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Yes "some" of us always realized "something" was missing.
We want more - to be more - to be respected for our ability and not just given a christmas bonus so we can run out and buy more of "x" product.
To be loved for the love we give.
For someone to care about us because we care about them.
I dont mean simply spouse and kids I mean all of community.
frustration - that about sums me up
To hear the rantings of the Specop and his ilk.
To hear the laughter from those who cannot possibly conceive of what is happening.
To know just how serious the situation is.
I tell you it can make a person crazy
My life to this point has been a hard road even in the land of mcmansions.
I was poor from birth and something tells me, even though I have been quite successful in life to this point, that I do not want to see another dirty dollar and would rather be self sufficent and just give a big middle finger to the system that f**** us!!!
I dont want to do anything now but farm and coexist with nature.
If I cannot accomplish this soon I feel I will implode.
I cannot sit and watch crap go down like this - I am pro active and always have been!!!!
I want to charge the Bull yet I am afraid to do it alone........
I look at dancing rabbit and think "yes! that is the answer!" yet I ultimately feel that hungry scavengers will roll right over them when the bad times come.
I sometimes feel very nihilistic.
Dont give me the "button" to gaurd I just might say goodnight to us all as sometimes I feel things are completely hopeless....and then one of my children will ask me "daddy will you play with me?"
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
I feel very much as you do NEOPO although my life experiences are obviously different.
However
Quote:
To hear the rantings of the Specop and his ilk.
To hear the laughter from those who cannot possibly conceive of what is happening.
This has the opposite effect on me, I enjoy a challenge, and to see what are essentially ordinary people being aware of the Peak Oil issue gives me a little confidence (a little ok) for the future.
Its the non internet using deniers, those that label you crazy for actually thinking about things, those you can see making plans which have no future. That I find most distressing. And all the time, because of my fragile ego, it hurts because people belittle my intellect, mock and ridicule, all due to their lack of intellectual capacity.
(A collegue bought me a book of conspiracy theories, and presented it to me in front of a crowded office, much to the amusement of the herded sheep. F***ing wage slaves.)
Deniers of PO comming here to deny, says something of the doubts they have about their own world view. (there's not many of them now though )
And frustration is the perfect word to describe (at least my) mindset. A bit sad, but good post.
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Tribal culture is built around connected groups of extended families. There are things I put up with from family that I just wouldn't tolerate from anyone else. This is cross cultural, so the failure of any community where several strangers or even friends get together and try to create a "family" is doomed to failure--until--things actually do get really hideous, and then just maybe for survival's sakes people with loose connections will find the ability to draw closer, even if theyr'e not genetically related, or related through marriage.
Maybe the answer is to keep it really small. If you want to do something with friends, limit it to less than six people.
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
SurvivalAcres wrote:
My points of view on civilization, society, modern living and such are not popular. People are unfulfilled and even frustrated, but they've yet to make the mental and spiritual journey to understand the source for their discontent. At least, that's how I see it.
I think you're right about the need for mental and spiritual understanding of the sources of discontent. I also think you're right that many people have not embarked upon this "path," so to speak. But I also suspect that there's much more to the story.
I'm a writer and artist, and have been a curious and introspective type all my life. I can relate to what you say about your views being unpopular. I've devoted most of my adult life to unraveling the lies I've been taught by this insane culture, and to figuring out why so few people manage to break free of wage slavery and go after their dreams, even when they want to. Even before I understood consciously that this was what I was doing, I made many choices that freed up time and attention for me to devote to this quest. For example, I chose not to have children, learned to live frugally so I could go without a job for long periods of time, and constantly questioned the status quo even when it cost me dearly to do so.
I've reached a point where I can say with a fair amount of confidence that I understand the sources of much my own discontent. And I have been wrestling with them consciously and deliberately for years, with varying degrees of success. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if even someone in my circumstances and with my level of motivation has trouble freeing themselves from their "civilized" views, then how much harder must it be for those who are NOT in my position?
For an example of what I'm talking about, take the belief (usually held unconsciously) that there is some kind of fundamental separation between "mental" and "spiritual" realms. This is a thoroughly modern cultural bias that functions as a kind of cultural "blinder." Those who aim to free themselves from civilization's grip must un-learn this approach, and even if you have a lot of individual motivation to un-learn it, it's still very difficult to do so when one is surrounded by a culture that reinforces this way of thinking constantly.
I constantly catch myself slipping into ways of thinking that I am trying to undo, and sometimes I try to change these by simply taking some kind of action I've never taken before. Lately I've become more convinced that whoever said "fake it 'til you make it" had the right idea. I heard this great quote from someone who said to her therapist: "Doc, I finally get it. You don't think your way to a new way of living, you LIVE your way to a new way of thinking!"
Actually I suspect the truth is that behavior and thinking aren't really such separate functions as we moderns seem to believe, but the relevant point for someone who's intellectually inclined is that change can be approached from various angles - not just from thinking. That's part of why information (such as knowing about PO) is not enough to change behavior - habits are deeply ingrained and often they are resistant to superficial change.
I could go on about this, but I'll spare you, as this is long enough already. The point is that it's easy to underestimate the enormity of the task we must undertake if we really do want to create a tribal kind of culture that will function as a lifeboat for "PO refugees". We need much more than practical preparations; we need to transform ourselves as well. We have to do it in the midst of a sinking ship and desperate, grasping people all around us, and to add to the problem, we have been trained all our lives to think and behave in ways that support the status quo. How many are going to take this perilous journey? Very few, I am afraid.
This is a worthy quest, however, even when the odds are overwhelming and not in our favor.
Threadbear, you have a good point about groups of extended families. From my own experience I have concluded that the "intentional community" approach has some structural problems built into it. It's like trying to engineer something that should, under appropriate conditions, come about of its own accord. Of course, the larger problem is that we don't HAVE the "appropriate conditions" to develop tribal ways, as our petroleum-fueled way of life has separated our extended families all over the globe, and so many of us are isolated.
I don't know what the answers are here, or even if there ARE any answers. However, keeping it small is probably a good idea if you're going to go the community route. The group dynamics increase in complexity with every new person added to the mix, and few of us are psychologically prepared to cope with this, I think.
Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Anonymous wrote:
auctionmonster wrote:
(...) if everything goes does down bad, there will be huge dieoffs, territory wars, wide spread famine.
I think we are headed for an immediate world wide recession possibly great depression but the sheeple will hold on as long as they have realty tv.
It are precisely these kinds of comments that keeps me coming back to this forum. Personally, I think that many people posting here spend WAY to much time on the Internet, browsing controversial websites that discuss global issues and claim to be informative (but are not), and then come to peakoil.com to share their newly acquired 'knowledge', with the intention to inform their fellow peakoiler, so he\she can take the adequate measures necessary to plan for the future.
It amazes me that people on peakoil.com actually believe they belong to a community that has some kind of foreseeing `knowledge`, that is not available to the masses (or as some members label them, very disrespectfull, the `sheeple` ), which gives us a huge advantage for future developments...
actually, I at times 'bip around the net' quite a bit, sometimes not commenting or even registering at certain sites, but reading and taking it all in. BUT.
Of all the sites I go to, I take this one the most seriously of them all..and I mean that. For the most part, I hear clear, structured, and calm discussions, that are pretty fuggin intelligent. Of course there are exceptions, but the overall tone of this forum is what I appreciate the most. Not 'panic' but 'plan'...not "we're all going to die" but "life as we know it is going to change." I can deal with that.
I don't know if I will make it through..but if nothing else, I can hopefully slowly but surely, and without panicking them, educate my children as to what is around the corner..
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
RedJake wrote:
A collegue bought me a book of conspiracy theories, and presented it to me in front of a crowded office, much to the amusement of the herded sheep. F***ing wage slaves.
At university I was in a very amateur band and my room-mates bought me a metronome for my birthday. I thanked them profusely because I had actually been wanting one! _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Aug 15, 2005 Posts: 264 Location: Hicktown OK
Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
by the way, I have no idea why it made that post as a 'guest', but it's medicvet..tried to fix it, but couldn't figure out how.. _________________ Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.-H.G. Wells
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
NordicThora wrote:
... Actually I suspect the truth is that behavior and thinking aren't really such separate functions as we moderns seem to believe, but the relevant point for someone who's intellectually inclined is that change can be approached from various angles - not just from thinking. That's part of why information (such as knowing about PO) is not enough to change behavior - habits are deeply ingrained and often they are resistant to superficial change...
Thora,
Sounds like you might enjoy "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" by Chogyam Trungpa - you already get a few of its basic messages, but there's more. It is Buddhism, though.
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Your mental state
I was going to start a new thread but then I saw this one and I thought it would be better to post my message here. My post will be somewhat disconnected from the previous writers but in keeping with the original spirit of this thread here goes:
I happened to be in Toronto for a few days last week. When I was looking around me I saw evidence that people were living a fake life. Or more fake than mine. Being a country/town boy I cringe at the thought that I might have to live there shortly. It was 'depressing' being in that environment. Skyscrapers, traffic jams, congested living areas, exorbitant housing prices and that whole consumeristic way of life. On one hand this move is meant to further my career goal toward employment in the airlines. On the other hand I feel that all of my hard work just for the privilege of navigating a Boeing will go to waste. I wish I could wake up tomorrow and this whole flying thing will be erased from my mind. I wish, I truly truly truly wish that I can be cured of my ambitions and that I can take on a more humble job and live a simple life. There are many times that I would like to be a janitor. Fairly simple, not extremely stressful and you dont have to worry about PO destroying your career. Although being 32 years of age I'm thinking like a 60 year old. I'm thinking of abandoning my materialistic pursuits in order to make way for family, a healthy lifestyle, exercise, a healthy spiritual life. Peak Oil is affecting my mental state. I wish someone can help me make the changes in my life that are necessary, or at least I need help to 'see' things in a proper light.
Joined: Dec 04, 2004 Posts: 2337 Location: perpetual state of exhaustion
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Wallygator there are other options of course. Living in Canada they need bush pilots, who you could pick up bush tips and tricks from. there's alsopilots in the forrest service.
You may want to think seriously about living in the city if it depresses your system that much. There are some mines located in remote areas that fly their people in and out. Why not take a look see?
Will we survive? undoubtedly some will, (at the very least).
I think it would be easier if we had an idea of what to aim for. Waht would an off-the-grid, more tribal life look like? what does a fulfilled life look like when there are no gadgets or toys? what should we gauge real success by? Having a vision may help you and may help inspire others who feel the same but don't know how to find their way to anything different than a wage slaves future. If we know what we want or need or waht it lookos like, we might be able to find our way there a little easier...I think.
I mean mentally and spiritually not in a physical sense.
Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Your mental state
Quote:
Sorry folks, but they are sheeple. They are reality tv watching, cell phone yacking, totally clueless, lets go shopping, economists say everything will be fine, sheeple.
They are McMansions buying, SUV driving, debt ridden, clueless idiots.
They are wasteful, shamefully wasteful, Swiffer wet mop wasteful scum. They mock our only sensible president as the "cardigan doctrine" president.
They are cynical, smart ass sarcastic morons., and I wash my hands of them.
The best put I have ever read.
My mental state? I am surviving a midlife crisis due to PO. I literally am reinventing myself as I feel completely unplugged from my past life. I am trying to find myself and where to go next. I was one of those idiots she describes above. I feel helpless sometimes that I am having trouble convincing anyone else (besides my wife, thank god) that this is real and going to happen.
I have literally changed from black to white in just 2 1/2 months. Now I don't know what to do with the rest of my life. I am struggling to define a plan, a future, something we can try. Some days I wish I had taken the blue pill, but I am definitely glad to know.
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I just might say goodnight to us all as sometimes I feel things are completely hopeless....and then one of my children will ask me "daddy will you play with me?" 
), which gives us a huge advantage for future developments...
Does anyone else receive peace of mind by just hanging out in these forums?
