Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1496 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject:
smiley wrote:
Quote:
What is most likely to happen: Armed roving bandits with firearms who have little training and discipline.
I do understand that that's a concern in the US. But as I tried to explain there are not enough guns in circulation to pose a real threat to my safety.
There will be roving bands if TSHTF, and likely the successful/smart ones will evolve and become more efficiently deadly.
Even without firearms, roving bands will prove hard to stop, as this Jerusalem Siege account from Josephus testifies;
Throughout the city people were dying of hunger in large numbers, and enduring unspeakable sufferings. In every house the merest hint of food sparked violence, and close relatives fell to blows, snatching from one another the pitiful supports of life. No respect was paid even to the dying; the ruffians [anti-Roman zealots] searched them, in case they were concealing food somewhere in their clothes, or just pretending to be near death. Gaping with hunger, like mad dogs, lawless gangs went staggering and reeling through the streets, battering upon the doors like drunkards, and so bewildered that they broke into the same house two or three times in an hour. Need drove the starving to gnaw at anything. Refuse which even animals would reject was collected and turned into food.
Among the residents of the region beyond Jordan was a woman called Mary, daughter of Eleazar, of the village of Bethezuba (the name means "House of Hyssop"). She was well off, and of good family, and had fled to Jerusalem with her relatives, where she became involved with the siege. Most of the property she had packed up and brought with her from Peraea had been plundered by the tyrants [Simon and John, leaders of the Jewish war-effort], and the rest of her treasure, together with such foods as she had been able to procure, was being carried by their henchmen in their daily raids. In her bitter resentment the poor woman cursed and abused these extortioners, and this incensed them against her. However, no one put her to death either from exasperation or pity. She grew weary of trying to find food for her kinsfolk. In any case, it was by now impossible to get any, wherever you tried. Famine gnawed at her vitals, and the fire of rage was ever fiercer than famine.
So, driven by fury and want, she committed a crime against nature. Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1496 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
jato wrote:
My rule of thumb for anti-personal firearms:
10 magazines per pistol.
20 magazines per rifle.
Remember, one needs enough magazines to last the life of the firearm. I have had magazines go bad (despite proper care). You may not be able to replace them in the future.
Your point on replacement is well taken.
Do stripper clips replace the need for some portion of the rifle mags? I'm considering a Yugo 59/66, in addition to the 10/22, Model 37, and Bersa .380 we now have (our farm will likely be a family retreat to include 4 males total). While an SKS is appealing because it and (stripper clip) ammo are inexpensive, is the lack of a chrome bore on the Yugo a showstopper (assuming it is in good shape to start with)? How often would I need to clean it; after every shooting? My FFL, an old friend, is also getting in a shipment of Romanian SKS, and he will hand-select any version I chose. Suggestions? (I would prefer not purchasing a Norinco on principle).
I should note that our farm is on top of a hill with wide open lines of sight for at least 500 feet, except where the hill drops away 300 feet in front of our house. We are planting 40 fruit and nut trees, but will place them and trim them so as to prevent them from being used as cover.
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:37 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Alright, this being THE gun thread and my being a gun neophyte, I've come for some answers. I've shied away from firearm ownership given my own beliefs regarding their place in a "civilized" society and my own sense of safety. However, I've decided that as part of my hedging strategies for PO preparation (since I'm not convinced the worst will happen, but I'm a firm believer in hedging my bets) I should at least become familiar with firearm operation and maintenance. My experience with firearms is limited to 3 trips to a firing range over the span of my entire life. In other words, not much!
So, questions:
1) For the folks in the New England: anyone recommend a specific firearms course in or around Massachusetts?
2) What's the best firearm to have at my disposal? Rifle or handgun? Any specific recommendations for a beginner that won't break the bank?
3) Is there any general guideline for what kind of stash my wife and I should have at our disposal? I dunno, but I doubt that inordinate volume is the answer. For example, should I *eventually" be thinking along the lines of two handguns and a rifle for the both of us?
4) What about PO considerations? Are there any models, types or features that would be desireable or otherwise?
Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance for your input.
Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2256 Location: Arkansas
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Digital,
There have been numerous threads on the gun issue. However, if a person were to choose only one weapon for an overall survival/defense weapon, it would have to be a shotgun.
First, the shotgun is by far the most versatile weapon out there. It can hunt anything from birds to bear (depending on which type of shell you use). If you decide to go all out, you can even buy different barrels depending on what you want to hunt/shoot.
Second, the shotgun is cheap. You can buy a good quality shotgun, new or used, for under $300. I personally prefer the Remington 870 pump shotgun (12 gauge) for its inherent reliability. There are lots of great shotguns out there, but the Remington 870 is tried and true, has a long history (used by both police and military), and is relatively cheap. I bought a used one at a pawn shop for $180.
If your wife and you will both learn on it, you may choose a 12 gauge with less kick. However, not knowing your wife, women can easily shoot 12 gauges.
Third, the shotgun takes a lot less practice to learn to use. Its basically a point and shoot weapon, bc its shooting out multiple projectiles. In a defensive situation, its knockdown power is unmatched.
The biggest limitation of the shotgun is it limited range (under 100 meters); however, most hunting (birds and deer) and most combat/self defense is under 100 meters, and the shotgun can be used effectively at ranges under 100m (again, choice of shot is important to range).
Just my thoughts. Hope it helps.
Last edited by seahorse on Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Gun Storage
Over the last couple of years I've collected 4 Mosin Nagant rifles and about 800 rounds of ammo for each. These are my "stash" guns and I'm looking for the best way to store them. Rifles are about sixty dollars each and ammo is around fifty bucks for 800 7.62x54R rounds delivered.
I'd been thinking of burying them in sections of 6 inch sewer pipe that has been nitrogen filled before sealing. Any one have a better idea?
Also, in answer to the how much ammo question, I keep 1,000 rounds for each semi auto rifle and 500 rounds for each simi auto pistol. Since rifles are in the 7.62x39 caliber and the pistols are in the 9 mm caliber it's easy to find good buys on bulk ammo.
Usually have loaded 4 clips for my rifles and two loaded clips for my pistols. If I'm lucky enough to get back to the house I can always get more ammo.
Ain't look'n for trouble, just want to be ready if trouble comes look'n for me.
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1496 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
bhowle wrote:
Gun Storage
Over the last couple of years I've collected 4 Mosin Nagant rifles and about 800 rounds of ammo for each. These are my "stash" guns and I'm looking for the best way to store them.
I'd been thinking of burying them in sections of 6 inch sewer pipe that has been nitrogen filled before sealing. Any one have a better idea?
Joined: Apr 17, 2004 Posts: 984 Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I choose a Saiga in 7.62x39. It was about 275 I think. Can't remember exactly. It was inexpensive compared to other rifles. It also does not have the hand grip style stock. Rather it has a traditional rifle style. Never had a jam and I have shot 2000 rounds or more through it.
Its a tack driver. Open sites and its pretty accurate.
For a pistol I have an XD40. Its pretty sweet. Good shooter and light. Was about 100 dollars less than a Glock.
I figure on keeping as low a profile as possible. I don't want to draw attention to myself if I can help it. I want to blend in and be a nobody. _________________ Peace out!
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
I've also got one of the Saigas in 7.62 x 39, it's a great bargain. I paid $250 for mine, a nice new Russian-made AK style rifle. I did the conversion and put a pistol grip on it and shortened the stock a bit. Mounted a PK-AS Russian red-dot sight on it, it's really a sweet gun. Took a buddy out who had never been shooting, gave him the Saiga with the red dot and a 30 round clip, he was making a pop can dance at about 40 yards in no time and really had a ball. It's the gun that lives by my dresser for when things go GRRRR in the night around the livestock.
Does this complicate the acquisition of some AK and similar style weapons?
Are people simply buying 'parts kits' and obtaining some US parts to satisfy the "10 part" rule? Or are they simply trying to stay compliant with both the 922r and 922v (expired Assault Weapons Ban)?
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Re 922r. Yes, people are buying parts kits and replacing parts, particularly the trigger group, sometimes the piston or handgrip.
You can pick up nice (but not great) Romanian parts kits for $100 or less right now, but thanks to BATFE's reinterpretation of the laws they're going to start drying up.
A fellow could probably pick up a few cases of these for the future and turn a pretty good profit.
Oh, the other answer to your question? Know how many people have been prosecuted for failing to comply with 922r? None. Lots of folks just don't bother, but most do I think.
Joined: Apr 17, 2004 Posts: 984 Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
On those cheap parts kits. The price has gone up more than 2 times around here. Like 200 or so for most. Then ya got to hand make some stuff to make them work. Sounds like a real problem to me.
Ya, if you modify a rifle or get a kit. The parts count still applies. I didn't think it was 10 parts but I'm not an expert.
My Saiga was inexpensive. Required no modifications and shoots real fine! I would recommend one to others for sure.
If you do build any weapon. Remember to begin by shooting one round at a time for several rounds. Then 2 rounds at a time for several times. Until your sure it will function well. Never put a full magazine in a rifle the first time you fire it. This could be a problem. Most likely not but it is better to be safe than sorry.
On your modified Saiga.
I seen a guy out at the range with a Saiga modified. Hand grip, ak mags, peep site and a scope. He also had a red dot site he was thinking of putting on it. It was a sweet shooter too! He explained the compliance parts issue and explained to me BATF will most likely never check but if that one in a million chance happened. He told me he would just as soon spend a little extra money and be sure BATF would not have any issues if they ever checked him. I thought this to be very wise.
He let me shoot it too. Sweet! _________________ Peace out!
Joined: Oct 16, 2004 Posts: 1496 Location: Appalachian Foothills of Virginia
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
On the same subject lines of 922r, does anyone know if the AK GPWASR guns now coming in from Romania are considered acceptable quality? I've heard of issues with other versions years past, but have heard that quality has picked up lately.
Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
The Saigas are great values. In only took me about 3 minutes with a dremel to shorten the magazine catch enough to accept standard AK magazines (much cheaper and higher capacity). The job to put pistol grip on was a little more involved but really easy, because the new mounting hole was already present under a thin metal plate. If you do the mods you need to comply with the 922r rules and replace some parts with US parts (identical parts but have USA stamped on the side, grrrr).
For all the info, to to www.saiga12.com and read the forums there.
The big problem with "Romanian" guns was, I think, the fact that they were being assembled in the US by Century, aka CAI, and the workmanship was terrible. I have some of the new Romanian parts kits and built one up, I was very pleased with the quality.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 846 Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: Re: [Shelter] Defense (THE gun thread)
Ardesa Fowler replica and Pedersoli double barrel .10 Gauge..
Just to rejuvinate the thread, especially for the fellow European guys..
In most states it's perfectly legal to buy a muzzleloading gun.
Don't laugh you can get rifles, double barrel shot guns, pistols whatever for big and small game.. These guns conqured the world up until the 19th century before the cartridge stuff came on scene..
The ammo can be cast at home, you just need the tools, lead, gunpowder and some natural fat and bits of textile, oil..
These guns have several inbread limitations, slow, more maintanance etc..
But they are nowadays being manufactured on CNC machines from AAA materials and equiped with quality optics. "Fast loading/cleaning" systems are apearing now as well. In terms of legality you can stock pile a big number of them of the same caliber or two. Only revolvers as being more than 2shots are prohibited from open sale, you need a permit. So a decent local defence unit can be assembled on your location UNNOTICED by the authorities..
Moreover, they are being manufactured in Italy, Spain so you can support your domestic industry before the great die-off.. _________________ DOOMerotron: at all-time high [8.1] out of 10..
Last edited by Mesuge on Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Open sites and its pretty accurate. 
Good shooter and light. Was about 100 dollars less than a Glock.
