Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
TIF (tax-increment financing) overlay districts are often used to 'recapture' the cost of adding arterials and streets (and infrastructure, utilities) to a neighborhood, so I see no reason why having a TIF overlay around a rail line couldn't capture a portion of the increased property values 'around' the line in order to pay the transit bonds down more quickly. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
Heineken wrote:
.....I can't tell you how many times I've looked through the window of a giant SUV and found the vehicle to have only one occupant.
A car only burns gas when the owner needs to make a trip. A bus on the other hand must run it's route regardless of whether there is a demand for it's services.
BTW I always find it funny how greenies never apologize for the piss poor financial performance of the public transport system in the USA. If a 50 room hotel routinely averaged 5 customers...it would soon go bankrupt. But a bus that averages 5 customers gets extra subsidies to stay afloat while the environmentalists lecture us on the "efficiency" of public transport.
I just LOVE greenies...it is always "entertaining" to listen to what they have to say.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
cube wrote:
BTW I always find it funny how greenies never apologize for the piss poor financial performance of the public transport system in the USA.
I've given up apologising for anything in the USA.
Public transport works in Wellington(NZ) because it has a critical mass of usage. You may never get that critical mass going in the US because of reluctance to change and a miopic mindset.
Auckland(NZ) has a similar addiction to the motor car and suffers for it, it's all in the attitude.
You can laugh at the greens as much as you like while sitting in the grid-lock or the gas-station-queue. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
cube wrote:
BTW I always find it funny how greenies never apologize for the piss poor financial performance of the public transport system in the USA. If a 50 room hotel routinely averaged 5 customers...it would soon go bankrupt. But a bus that averages 5 customers gets extra subsidies to stay afloat while the environmentalists lecture us on the "efficiency" of public transport.
I just LOVE greenies...it is always "entertaining" to listen to what they have to say.
I'll be honest with you - I hate buses. I prefer trains to cars, and cars to buses. Buses are compromised forms of transit that attempt to cater to the low-density lifestyle, and do so miserably. This causes everyone to point to mass transit in general as being a 'failure,' and seeing how our government prioritizes funding for it, they're probably right. Trains, on the other hand, are a more 'permanent' investment, and thus spur higher densities at the stops over time. They promote sustainable, 'good' development because of their permanence. Buses cannot spur development because of the ephemeral nature of a bus route - they're not fixed; they can be dropped with the stroke of a mayor's pen. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Joined: May 19, 2004 Posts: 892 Location: San Francisco, California
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
cube wrote:
BTW I always find it funny how greenies never apologize for the piss poor financial performance of the public transport system in the USA. If a 50 room hotel routinely averaged 5 customers...it would soon go bankrupt. But a bus that averages 5 customers gets extra subsidies to stay afloat while the environmentalists lecture us on the "efficiency" of public transport.
I would say that each public transit system is actually two systems. One is the revenue-generating system for commuters. The other is the government mandated system that has to fill a quota of buses at certain times. For example, I ride Caltrain (the bike car) every day during commute hours. The cars always fill and we're constantly asking Caltrain to put another bike car on that train. On the other hand, if you ride Caltrain at noon, it's almost empty.
Another example of this dual nature is Amtrak -- government funded throughout most of the U.S., self-supporting on the East coast.
The other day I rode MUNI (the intra-city system San Franciscans love to hate) from Noe Valley to Potrero Hill. The bus was standing room only. On the other hand, like Jato, I often see almost empty buses drive by my house in the evening.
For most transit systems, the high-passenger commute routes and times are probably self-supporting.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
BabyPeanut wrote:
Why Does America Have the Worst Public Transit in the Industrialized World, and the Most Freeways?
Little known unless you read Kunstler et al. (and PO.com of course!) _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
I'll be honest with you - I hate buses. I prefer trains to cars, and cars to buses. Buses are compromised forms of transit that attempt to cater to the low-density lifestyle, and do so miserably. This causes everyone to point to mass transit in general as being a 'failure,' and seeing how our government prioritizes funding for it, they're probably right. .
You have the same feelings as me. Buses have been about for 100 years and in this country have been losing passengers constantly for the last 50, apart from in London in the last 2 years where a congestion charge has been imposed on motorists and they are given a subsidy of £1 billion. Nevertheless bus passenger KM is still lower than the tube, despite the tube's revenue exceeding costs.
I have to be honest I have never enjoyed a bus journey, bar maybe those school coach journeys of old, and I'm sorry which ever way you dress buses up they are low status. I'm not saying shut them down, they are important for low paid people, but they are not an alternative to the car for most people. And will be important post peak in some areas.
Rail has always been more attractive, faster, and more spacious. Intercity trains are more comfortable than airlines in many places and of course have been able to run on electricty for over 100 years. Rail freight is 5-10 times more efficient than trucks. As Peak Oil is a liquid fuels crisis this is important.
Beyond the political battles over individual transportation projects, there is the mindless and close to idiotic opposition to rail based transportation systems from ideologues of both left and right. Even though electric powered light rail trains and streetcars are among the cheapest and best methods for greatly increasing the capacity of our transportation system and reducing gridlock on the freeways. Such systems can move more people than freeway and buses and are almost as fast as expensive subway systems. Yet, self-proclaimed conservatives and libertarians fight almost every effort to create rail based transit with well organized propaganda campaigns.
Left-wing ideologues have labeled rail based transit racist and tried to fight efforts to build rail systems in the courts.
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:52 am Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
I used to play Sim City. A lot. Some might say too much, but I did pause to get food and go to the bathroom, so in my opinion I played a reasonable amount.
One of the hints in the game manual was that it's better to have no mass transit at all than a poorly designed system. A poorly designed system won't get used, and you still have to pay for it's upkeep, adding to your tax burden while doing nothing about congestion.
I see this principle at work every day in the US. When you go outside major metro areas the buses have 2 people on them when they pass by. If they ran every 30 minutes instead of every 2 hours, right away the working poor have a viable option for getting around instead of having to gas up their old wrecks.
Joined: Oct 17, 2005 Posts: 139 Location: Shoreline, Washington
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
Need I remind anyone that nearly 25% of the Federal Highway Administration's appropriations budget comes straight out of the federal budget? Need I also remind anyone that a significant portion of your property taxes go toward street construction, maintenance and repair, traffic control signals, traffic patrol, school buses, et. al.? If you start adding all the 'hidden' subsidies of the automobile into the equation, you'll start to see just how expensive the automobile lifestyle really is.
Thanks so much for saying this. I was just cruising the thread to make sure someone brought up the obvious (and also non-obvious) answer. Deserves a repeat. _________________ The passing of abundant oil is not shaping up to be a soft landing for those with the fattest asses. - Jan Lundberg
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
perplexd wrote:
emersonbiggins wrote:
Need I remind anyone that nearly 25% of the Federal Highway Administration's appropriations budget comes straight out of the federal budget? Need I also remind anyone that a significant portion of your property taxes go toward street construction, maintenance and repair, traffic control signals, traffic patrol, school buses, et. al.? If you start adding all the 'hidden' subsidies of the automobile into the equation, you'll start to see just how expensive the automobile lifestyle really is.
Thanks so much for saying this. I was just cruising the thread to make sure someone brought up the obvious (and also non-obvious) answer. Deserves a repeat.
Then throw in the cost of a war to secure access to oil. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 142 Location: New Zealand
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
emersonbiggins wrote:
I'll be honest with you - I hate buses. I prefer trains to cars, and cars to buses.
Maybe you haven't ridden a modern bus system in a while ?
Our city's had 50% growth in patronage in the last 4 years, driven by new routes, extra services and most importantly clean modern super-low-floor vehicles. _________________ Let's hope the next generation have a sense of humour ... our generation will need it.
What about trolleybuses ? They already use the existing infrastructure and the changes made to accomodate a line are much smaller than that of a light rail or streetcar setup. Plus there's this new technology being studied (mostly by the Chinese) which uses supercapacitors (that charge at every bus stop) to run the bus, doing away with power lines.
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:02 am Post subject: Re: CNN report: Mass transit is inefficient
fastbike wrote:
emersonbiggins wrote:
I'll be honest with you - I hate buses. I prefer trains to cars, and cars to buses.
Maybe you haven't ridden a modern bus system in a while ?
Our city's had 50% growth in patronage in the last 4 years, driven by new routes, extra services and most importantly clean modern super-low-floor vehicles.
No, it's not exactly how 'derelict' the systems that we have are now that causes me to dislike bus transit, but rather that a bus stop rarely promotes sustainable development. A rail stop, however, will almost always spur some form of sustainable development, given the same incentives and inherent 'permanence' in the feature of the stop/rails, etc. This is an important distinction, because most people riding buses (in the suburbs) think that by doing so, the bus becomes a stopgap measure to preserve the suburban lifestyle. And of course, I think they couldn't be more wrong. It's an ad hoc solution to a problem that has no clear solution, other than sustainable urban planning and design. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
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