Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Whats interesting is that at an event held by someone WHO WAS THERE and saw the horros of Communism, there were still Berkley idiots* who would promote those beliefs!
*This is not to say all of Berkley people are idiots. But a good majority are flaming Communists or liberals. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:25 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Specop_007 wrote:
Whats interesting is that at an event held by someone WHO WAS THERE and saw the horros of Communism, there were still Berkley idiots* who would promote those beliefs!
Well, you see the horrors of extreme right and still promote those beliefs. I see no difference here.
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
One central theme in communist ideology is this.
As we have intellectual awareness (enlightenment), we no longer have to live by survival of the fittest and instead can model society on a man made design.
Another is this.
That capitalism leads, innevitaby to some kind of communism.
I am sure those berkley people weren't talking about the most efficient way to silence descent, execute thought criminals, brainwash the youth.
They were probably talking about the far more simple, introductory ideas to the ideology.
Thankfully, you still have free speach, so this kind of discussion can be had. Good for the US.
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Doly wrote:
Specop_007 wrote:
Whats interesting is that at an event held by someone WHO WAS THERE and saw the horros of Communism, there were still Berkley idiots* who would promote those beliefs!
Well, you see the horrors of extreme right and still promote those beliefs. I see no difference here.
I know. And isnt it horrible, to push the ideas of maturity, responsiblity and standing up on your own two feet and actually paying your own way in the world, and getting to take home the fruits of your labor?
Damn that growing up.
You know what the difference between "my" view and "your" view is?
In "your" view, only a select few can be at the top, and no one else is entitled to anything.
In "my" view, anyone can make it to the top and everyone is entitled to what they want to work to achieve.
Roughly speaking. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:51 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Quote:
In "your" view, only a select few can be at the top, and no one else is entitled to anything.
I don't know what Doly's view is, but this is not true.
Those who bennifited the state rose up through its ranks, just as someone who acquires capital wealth rises up the capitalist ranks.
You may find it ammusing to see the old novelists in Russia lament the demise of the USSR, they had simple lives, nice houses. Now they have to put up with the neuvo rich (sp?) and they HATE it.
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
RedJake wrote:
Quote:
In "your" view, only a select few can be at the top, and no one else is entitled to anything.
I don't know what Doly's view is, but this is not true.
Those who bennifited the state rose up through its ranks, just as someone who acquires capital wealth rises up the capitalist ranks.
You may find it ammusing to see the old novelists in Russia lament the demise of the USSR, they had simple lives, nice houses. Now they have to put up with the neuvo rich (sp?) and they HATE it.
No, thats completely true. Remember, equality for all.
Only the very high leaders had fancy cars and nice houses. Everyone else gets everything just the same. Rank and file, march to the same drum. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Joined: Jun 21, 2004 Posts: 413 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:05 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
There's only one fact you need to know about communism: It rules.
I think part of the problem with the system's history is that it was overthought. There are simpler models that seem to be perfect examples of how the system can really work. Take for instance the following:
Star Trek
In Star Trek, there was no monetary system. You had to earn everything you got. Yet, this also envisioned a future of high living standards, ultra modern technology and equal opportunity for all. How many post-apocalyptic films or TV Shows came out that demonizes (rightfully) corporations? I think there's a reason for that, because Capitalism is going to mess us all up. I could be more thorough in that statement, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Redwall
This is an anthropomorphic fantasy series in which the inhabitants of the series' recurring locale: Mossflower, clearly live and thrive in a simplistic socialist society. They have no:
money, class-system, elitism, worker exploitation, etc. Yet they always have an abundance of food, comfortable living situations and a happily functioning society based on a community that values everyone equally.
Now I know alot of crap happened in Communist societies, but I think thats largely due to the fact that the leaders of those countries were psychos. But to denounce the system because of the people in charge is like denouncing a car for the drunk driver that crashed it. The system deserves another chance. _________________ Vision without action is a dream, action without vision is a nightmare.
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:18 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Quote:
No, thats completely true. Remember, equality for all.
Only the very high leaders had fancy cars and nice houses. Everyone else gets everything just the same. Rank and file, march to the same drum.
We are not born equal though! IMO, some are born lazy, some are born morons, some are born disabled etc..
You couldn't rise through the party by generating vast sums of personal wealth, hell, you couldn't even accumulate wealth.
Its a totally different mind set.
Big manufacturers could rise up through the party. Propagandists, successful military planners, Union leaders(although it had a different meaning in USSR).
There was opportunity, thats why they won the space race Just not the opportunity for personal protectionism. Many people did have nice houses, if they helped progress the party agenda.
Those who sat on their ass doing nothing lived 10 to an apartment and got what they were given. Sounds familiar.
Now I accept that there was no freedom of personal expression, something which would trouble me greatly. I am truely thankful to live in a free society, which allows me to learn about any ideology i see fit. I would have great fun talking to those Berkley people about this most precious freedom.
I used to think I was a Marxist, but I was young and had a simplistic world view.
I don't like the capitalist system and believe there should be some restrictions on private wealth accumulation.
I don't have the answer to what we should have though. Something in the middle would be good, but workable? Maybe. Thats why meetings like that are very important.
We haven't found the best way of living yet, but we never will if we simply accept the staus quo.
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
skyemoor wrote:
This is an interesting debate, though it doesn't have much to do with PO, so should be in Open Discussion or some other forum (or website).
I have to humbly disagree. Inevitably every Peak Oil argument begins or ends with a call a) take the oil away from oil cos. & put it private hands; b) bemoans market solutions to market problems; and c) proposes some form of government control which looks remarkably like facism or communism.
Therefore, this is very topical. We start with a geological event like peak oil and it becomes the rallying call for a large group of interested people to call for a new system of government and to do away with the market economy. Sadly, one has very little to do with other, but that is one reason why those who believe in market reforms cannot surrender ground and give the facists and communists, perhaps kinder and gentler facists and communists, the chance to win over support for their tried and tired arguments which have been proven not only not to work, but to have nasty side effects like persecution and repression, too. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Quote:
a) take the oil away from oil cos. & put it private hands;
Sorry should read, a) take the oil away from oil cos. & put it public hands (which by the way, it largely is. The national oil cos. have more reserves than private cos. and countries like Canada own their resources, they just auction off the exploration and extraction rights and collect a tithe through royalty payments. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Feb 25, 2005 Posts: 772 Location: Luton, England
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:14 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Well MrBill, I certainly don't have an agenda here to promote one belief system over another, just like to formulate my world view.
Quote:
their tried and tired arguments which have been proven not only not to work, but to have nasty side effects like persecution and repression, too.
I've never understood this argument. Its like saying Monarchic systems of gov. don't work. Dictatorships, Fascists. Whatever. They all work, your oppinion on whether they are good or not is beside the point.
If you say Communism has been proved not to work, i assume you think the same of Capitalist systems.
Perhaps I'm missing the point! Is it because the USSR collapsed that you think it is tried and tired? China's still successful. Cuba has been, given the problems it has faced.
Should we accept the current 'system' as the only one that works. To do that would make it a Fascist system, would it not?
The thread started about a meeting which was a current event, its just gone off track and expect it will be moved soon.
Last edited by Jake on Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
skyemoor wrote:
This is an interesting debate, though it doesn't have much to do with PO, so should be in Open Discussion or some other forum (or website).
Its here to reach a....different...audience. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Sencha wrote:
There's only one fact you need to know about communism: It rules.
I think part of the problem with the system's history is that it was overthought. There are simpler models that seem to be perfect examples of how the system can really work. Take for instance the following:
Star Trek
In Star Trek, there was no monetary system. You had to earn everything you got. Yet, this also envisioned a future of high living standards, ultra modern technology and equal opportunity for all. How many post-apocalyptic films or TV Shows came out that demonizes (rightfully) corporations? I think there's a reason for that, because Capitalism is going to mess us all up. I could be more thorough in that statement, but I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
It rules on paper. In real life its slightly less successful. In fact, for the most part its a failure. Citing a fictional fairy tale science fiction as proof of concept isnt really getting us anywhere.
Look to the major Communist regimes. Those are real world examples of why it fails, or at the very least isnt as successful as other forms of government.
But I will agree, it sure does sound good.
Quote:
Now I know alot of crap happened in Communist societies, but I think thats largely due to the fact that the leaders of those countries were psychos. But to denounce the system because of the people in charge is like denouncing a car for the drunk driver that crashed it. The system deserves another chance.
So, your going to say virtually every Communist system in the world failed due to the leaders?
And yet you think it would still work??
That makes no sense. The living proof is the systems fail not because of psycho leaders but because of the greed of human beings. And it wont ever change. _________________ "Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the
Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."
Ammo at a gunfight is like bubblegum in grade school: If you havent brought enough for everyone, you're in trouble
Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: Re: An interesting study in facts and lies of Communism
Capitalism, Socialism, nor Communism is the problem.
We are.
All systems can work, and work well. We are the ones who are not able to cope and live civilized.
Capitalism is my preference of course. Capitalism is not bad, greedy globalist corporations that murder and rape natural resources are the bad ones. Not capitalism.
The same analogies can be drawn for socialism and communism.
I think I could be happy under any of these systems, but only with enlightened people.
At the same time, I don't think we should be trying to formulate a utopian system that will force people to do well. People will have to do well only if they want to.
So we shouldn't try to change capitalism or communism. We have to work on changing ourselves.
Then, we could even live happily and harmoniously in anarchy if we choose. _________________ Now why didn't I take the blue pill.
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Just not the opportunity for personal protectionism. Many people did have nice houses, if they helped progress the party agenda.
