I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 266 Location: San Francisco, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
I'm all for the United States of Canada / Jesusland split of the country, but 1) what exactly is the procedure for this and would it ever fly and 2) I don't see any proof that this is more than the actions of just a small set of citizens.
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
Clouseau2 wrote:
but 1) what exactly is the procedure for this and would it ever fly and 2) I don't see any proof that this is more than the actions of just a small set of citizens.
They asked exactly the same questions after the Boston Tea Party.
History doesn't repeat, it rhymes. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
We do not need to split form the United States.
We are the United States!
Let the South Seced and become the 3rd World hellhole it's always been. It's about time they pull themsleves up by their bootstraps and wean themselves from the federal government and so on with the rhetoric...
Though I feel bad for places like Athens, GA, Chapel Hill NC and Austin to name but a few. Maybe they can become like Taiwan, though we would need enough razor wire and mine fields to keep the starving hoardes from overunning our southern-most outposts. Can't feed yourself off the ol' stars n bars.
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
This just goes to prove that Canada is the best country after all. Seriously. You guys are going to collapse and we are going to cherry pick some of the nicer states to join us and ascend to our rightful place as the biggest nation on earth.
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
Trindelm wrote:
We do not need to split form the United States.
We are the United States!
Let the South Seced and become the 3rd World hellhole it's always been. It's about time they pull themsleves up by their bootstraps and wean themselves from the federal government and so on with the rhetoric...
Though I feel bad for places like Athens, GA, Chapel Hill NC and Austin to name but a few. Maybe they can become like Taiwan, though we would need enough razor wire and mine fields to keep the starving hoardes from overunning our southern-most outposts. Can't feed yourself off the ol' stars n bars.
When I was a kid back in the 1950's my parents moved from the North to the deep South. The hatred of Yankees and the associated playground assults against me I did not understand at the time. In later years I could see how those prejudices and angers were passed down from older generations who live the Civil War to their decendents, my contemparies.
It really surprises that these prejudices live on today in the mind of this post originator.
I did not think that such hatred could live for 150 years, except this time in the mind of a Yankee instead of my deep south "friends".
You can see from this thread, however, that when the US does disintegrate under the weight of peak oil that hatreds and prejudices that engulfed people in 1861 will be here again, only this time we can nuke one another. Not a pretty picture, but this is the nature of mankind. The political entity known as the US is doomed, just as surely as was the USSR.
Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
Sencha -
I'm puzzled by your final line above:
"Still though, I think this is start of something pretty awesome. I wish the Second Vermont Republic luck."
As it seems to me that the central failure of the US Republic is to moderate capitalism to serve the common good,
and that this failure of the Republican model is ubiquitous even on the scale of small nations,
why on earth would Vermont go committing itself to so dicredited a model for a second time ?
regards,
Backstop _________________ "The best of conservation . . . is written not with a pen but with an axe."
(from "A Sand County Almanac" by Aldo Leopold, 1948.
Joined: Jun 21, 2004 Posts: 413 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
Admittedly, I don't know if I have an answer for that. All I know is that this is a first important step to doing something about an out of control administration, namely by separating from it.
The U.S. is probably going to break up into smaller regional territories anyway, it might as well start happening now. I can't see the federal government existing to any effect after the SHTF, unless it goes all out facist or something. _________________ Vision without action is a dream, action without vision is a nightmare.
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
Quote:
It really surprises that these prejudices live on today in the mind of this post originator.
I did not think that such hatred could live for 150 years, except this time in the mind of a Yankee instead of my deep south "friends".
And now the hangover...
Gego, there was no excuse for what I wrote yesterday (even if I did grow up in Boston) it was plain and simple wrong to stereotype and disparage an entire region of America. I owe you and everyone else that I offended an apology.
Joined: Oct 28, 2004 Posts: 294 Location: SoWashCo, Minnesota
Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
It's a big step to go from talking about it to actually trying to do it. I would expect the Feds to step in if any movement of this sort gets any real traction.
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 3032 Location: In a Nigerian compound surrounded by mighty dignataries
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
HELLO,
Interesting discussion, to my knowledge Texas is the only state that may "legally" leave the United States. Before joining the union, Texas was a Soviergn Republic and as a condition to joining the union it was allowed this succesion clause. This is something every texan learns in 7th grade Texas history class. GW knows better than to push Texas to that point. What texas lacks in natural borders it makes up with our own economy, our own oil, and a high level of gun ownership. Sucession was a very big issue back in the early 80's but fizzled out when west texas intermediate went down to $13 a barrel. A book came out in the early 80's called "A Quick and Dirty Guide to War". This book was very ahead of it's time by predicting war in Afganistan waged by the west, The Enthnic civil war in Yugoslavia, and that listed the Texas scenario along with probabilities. _________________ "Every joke is a tiny revolution"-Culture Jammers Bible
Joined: Aug 30, 2005 Posts: 277 Location: Second Vermont Republic
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
As a resident of Vermont, let me tell you that there is exactly 0% serious talk about secession. No, we're not happy with the way the political wind is blowing and yes, we are more like much of Canada politially, but that's as far as it goes.
Sorry, we're Americans like everyone else and have no plans to remove ourselves, certain fringe wackos excepted.
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Sucession
PrairieMule wrote:
HELLO,
Interesting discussion, to my knowledge Texas is the only state that may "legally" leave the United States. Before joining the union, Texas was a Soviergn Republic and as a condition to joining the union it was allowed this succesion clause. This is something every texan learns in 7th grade Texas history class. GW knows better than to push Texas to that point. What texas lacks in natural borders it makes up with our own economy, our own oil, and a high level of gun ownership. Sucession was a very big issue back in the early 80's but fizzled out when west texas intermediate went down to $13 a barrel. A book came out in the early 80's called "A Quick and Dirty Guide to War". This book was very ahead of it's time by predicting war in Afganistan waged by the west, The Enthnic civil war in Yugoslavia, and that listed the Texas scenario along with probabilities.
Yes, every state can. It is not expressly prohibited in the constitution for a state to leave the Union, therefore it remains a right that the states , (and people), can exersize. However, leaving the Union would be considered an act of insurrection, and would be dealt with by congress in the fashion that has been granted to them by the US Constitution. So yes, any state may leave, but expect a war.
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; --US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; --US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 15
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. --US Constitution, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 2
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation... --US Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence. --US Constitution, Article 4, Section 4
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. -- US Constitution, Amendment 9
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. -- US Constitution, Amendment 10 _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
Joined: Jan 31, 2005 Posts: 451 Location: Massachusetts
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Vermont Secession
Interesting discussion.
But can we change the title of the thread to "Vermont Secession"?
I am an editor. I usually just ignore misspellings, but it looks so awful in a title!
"Succession" is something different. Like, according to the rules of succession, the vice president takes office when the president is disabled. (Now THERE is a scary thought.)
Maybe the person who started the thread could fix this?
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