Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Most of our immigrants came from Morocco and Turkey round the 60s, the country was getting back on its feet after WW2 and the economy was growing, lots of people weren't willing to do menial jobs or perhaps there simply weren't enough, I forgot the details. The immigration from former colonies was smaller. From Indonesia came whites, who were unwanted after the country gained its independence, most immigrants from Suriname came after their independence in 1975, they probably anticipated their stability was over. (Desi Bouterse, you know the guy probably) _________________
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 2500 Location: Ye Olde Englande
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Whats the latest on Hollands immigration policy?
When I was studying in Tilburg Jan Pronk came and gave a lecture. At the time he was involved in a dispute over immigration with the then Dutch immigration minister. _________________ "The age of excess is over. The age of entropy has begun"
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
stu wrote:
Whats the latest on Hollands immigration policy?
When I was studying in Tilburg Jan Pronk came and gave a lecture. At the time he was involved in a dispute over immigration with the then Dutch immigration minister.
We recently had the case in NZ where a NZ MP renewed his Dutch citizenship and should have had to resign from parliament. The problem was it lapsed so technically he did not have it when he was elected and MPs are barred from acquiring foreign citizenship during their terms of office as that implies a conflict on interest.
No problem if you have dual-citizenship prior to election as then it's open and above board. _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Joined: Oct 12, 2004 Posts: 1647 Location: Davis, California
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:01 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
rogerhb wrote:
Brussels Journal wrote:
Since 2003 emigration exceeds immigration: 110,235 people (mostly Dutch natives) left the Netherlands last year, compared to 94,019 people (many of them Muslims) moving in. In the first half of this year 53,808 people moved out, compared to 40,842 moving in. To lose 100,000 natives a year is a lot for a country of 16 million, one million of whom already are Muslim immigrants.
Reverse colonisation! After centuries of building empires the overflow from those former colonies now floods into the land of the former masters.
Oh, the irony.
ahahaha you reap what you sow. _________________ Joseph Stalin "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. "
Joined: Oct 17, 2005 Posts: 68 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Quote:
"110,235 people (mostly Dutch natives) left the Netherlands last year, compared to 94,019 people (many of them Muslims) moving in".
I would like to return to the statement that most of the people leaving the Netherlands are Dutch natives. The only numbers I could find: of those 110,235 people leaving the country in 2004, 78,286 people were born in western countries, while 31,949 people were originally from non-western countries. In no way does the CBS, the Dutch national statistics bureau, specify their country of birth, nationality, or religion for that matter. As for the number of immigrants: 56,706 of those 94,019 people are from western countries, leaving 37,313 people from non-western countries. Again, in no way does the CBS specify these numbers, but many of those 56,706 westerners are people of Dutch nationality returning from stays abroad, while those leaving are mainly Muslims returning to their countries of birth.
That's just what I surmise though, because the numbers merely show a net efflux of 21,580 people of western origin, and a staggering net influx of 5364 non-westerners . By claiming that the Netherlands loses 100,000 Dutch natives a year, is spouting unsubstantiated, not to mention simply preposterous, BS.
The most popular countries to migrate to, for Dutch people, are Belgium and Germany. Many will not move more then a few kilometers into those countries. The primary reason to do so, is lower housing costs, and several tax reasons. Nothing has to do with a collapse of Dutch society.
Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 514 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
rogerhb wrote:
[ I did not know that Dutch troops were in Iraq. Netherlands have typically been low key, during WWII they were occupied by the Germans and really were unable to put up much of a fight due to size of population etc.
Not true: after some stiff resistance by our make shift army Germany bombed out Rotterdam, and warned that other major cities like Amsterdam, The Hague, Utrecht would suffer the same fate, if we wouldn't surrender. After that Dutch resistance did what it could, which for instance led to a general strike in 1941. Yet, on the other hand, in those days Dutch public services were often run by protestants who felt that according to the Bible they should obey the forces that be. One more factor which led to the Netherlands being one of the countries where most Jews were abducted was that the Dutch had their population almost too perfectly administrated before the Germans came in.
Which is no wonder, considering the fact that the Germans learned their own love of red tape (as much as how to structure an army) from the Dutch in the 17th century already, through the Elector of Brandenburg whose son then became the first king in Prussia. The Elector of Brandenburg Friedrich Wilhelm (aka the Great Elector) was related the House of Orange.
Btw, just as NYC (and any American) city grid is a Dutch military invention.
The Netherlands has only been a haven of liberalism from the late 1960's onward. Even during the Golden Era in the 17th century those refugees from especially Germany who were poor ran the risk getting hung. So in a way what's been happening in my country for a good deal is simply laying down the mask.
Still, let's not be too pessimistic: the present coalition would not have a majority at all, if there would be elections now. Balkenende's approval ratings are lowest of all Dutch prime ministers ever, and no wonder. Even new parties which try to cash in on the Fortuyn legacy hardly get any approval.
Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 514 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
Sleepybag wrote:
The most popular countries to migrate to, for Dutch people, are Belgium and Germany. Many will not move more then a few kilometers into those countries. The primary reason to do so, is lower housing costs, and several tax reasons. Nothing has to do with a collapse of Dutch society.
Not completely too. Voices have been heard of people claiming they're leaving because of the way things have been developing, but then again, this can go both ways. Some people do leave out of fear for radical Muslims. Which is nonsense, considering the fact that Al Qaeda is supposed to be a worldwide phenomenon: there was this couple on the telly which emigrated to Spain for this very reason, even after the Madrid train bombings! Dutch people, see, are amongst the worst informed nations in the West. Many people only watch junk television or read free junk newspapers.
Yet, another reason for people leaving is the devastating lack of civility and true cultural interest which is ravaging the country. I live very close to the German border, I have some good connections in Brussels and a brother living in Antwerp, and it's always such a relief traveling either to Germany or to Belgium, and it's almost always sheer horror to travel back (by train, of course ) for the lack of manners which is becoming prevalent.
My brother has even already moved to Belgium for such reasons. And yes, indeed, housing prices in Germany are much much lower than they are here, which surely is also a factor.
Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 514 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Is tolerance dead in Netherlands?
stu wrote:
What people seem to forget is that Western countries needed immigration seeing as a lot of our citizens died in WWII.
Fortunately the UK could rely on the Commonwealth countries for workers and I'm sure the Dutch done the same by getting immigrants from it's former colonies.
Much less than you would think. The Netherlands relied on people from the Mediterranean firstly. But, after Indonesian independence we also had an influx of Indonesian Christians who had been loyal to Dutch colonialism. It was only around 1970 or so that people from Surinam started coming in, wary of impending Surinam independence.. The Dutch Antilles are still Dutch, so Antillians can come in freely. Though it has been a political issue recently (some of those young guys are not amongst the finest kind), and it has been tried to have them become second rate citizens through legal measures, but of course that cannot be done constitutionally. And rightfully so.
That's civil war... Surprise ! 99% of the commando is muslim ! A peace making religion they said... They burnt schools, firemen car parks, attacked the town hall, the firemen, the police...
but their fellow muslim friends only protest when some tear gas bomb got inside a...
mosque...
Muslims are very tolerant in fact, but only with other muslims...
They all have african passport, they all prefer their ancestral african country, they hate west ? Let's send them back ! The million white french who were expelled from Algeria in the sixties were all born in Algeria, most of them since 2 or 3 generations, and they were expelled without humanity and without the blink of the eyes of the United Nations - you know the bullshit assembly in NY... So why expelling muslims from europe should be considered in a different way ? Freeing the country from invaders, giving it back to the original owners ?
Since 1945, white europeans live at last in peace together, and we don't need african troublemakers. We need to shrink our inhabitants number because of coming peak oil not to import some more muslim nazis full of hatred !
I wish Sharon would be the next french president...
PS : by the way, all comments about europe made by people non living in europe is bullshit... Taking vacation to Paris is great, living in Paris is a nightmare - I know I did both...
PPSS : when muslim invaded spain, they brought "civilisation", when France invaded north africa, they "colonize"... Now who's the racists ? _________________ "There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is known as the dark ages."
Ruth Hermence Green
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) for the lack of manners which is becoming prevalent.
